SLUGGER O'TOOLE
Notes on Northern Ireland politics and culture

I don't agree that religious fundamentalists of any persuasion make better fathers. Where does the "Prods make better dads" bit come in?

Fundamentalist fathers' religious beliefs may encourage them to be faithful to their wives and to be around more often for their children, but will they instil qualities such as tolerance of others into their children?

I grew up in a religious (Church of Ireland) household. I have friends who grew up in both Catholic and Protestant households. My observation would be the more religious the father, the more controlling he was of his children, particularly daughters. In the South "If you have sex outside marriage you'll burn in hell!" was the message given to Catholic and Protestant girls alike.

Fundamentalist fathers may find it difficult to cope when their children misbehave, for example, getting drunk, daughters getting pregnant and sons getting someone else's daughter pregnant.

Also, fundamentalist fathers may be more domineering with their wives, giving a negative message to daughters, and making it harder for daughters to fight for their independence. Ireland's struggle for independence is nothing on this contributors ongoing struggle for independence from the outmoded attitudes of a fundamentalist Church of Ireland family. And I'll go down fighting!

Back to the point, do fundamentalists (or evangelicals) make better fathers? In my opinion, DEFINITELY NOT!

Christians obviously make for poor criminals though, the jail statistics show that Christians are over-represented in US and UK jails by a significant proportion. What does that tell you ?

I'd agree with that. Children brought up by fundamentalist parents are likely to go down one of two routes. Firstly they may take on the prejudices and bigotries of their parents wholesale and retain a tendency not to tolerate differences of lifestyle or opinion, alternatively they will react much more violently against their parents beliefs and moral strictures than normal children and find themselves more susceptible to damage from drink, drugs, teenage pregnancy etc. Neither of these routes augur well for a balanced upbringing.

That at least one US Christian fundamentalist is a war criminal (and he's coming to Ireland this weekend!)

All subcultures have distinct characteristics.

In my younger day, the evangelical church I attended received an exhaustive questionnaire from QUB - a survey on evangelical young people, who apparently have a consistently higher than average likelihood of university attendance and a professional career.

sheesh.. goodness youse have it in for Christains, eh?

SSL, at the risk of really winding you up, don't you think that any sensible father would be worried if his daughter or son was drinking heavily or getting pregnant/ getting people pregnant?

I mean it does sort of constrain your life choices, education, future careers etc, no?

wouldn't they be a bit.. negligent.. if they didnt worry and try to get their children to make wiser choices about their health or future?

or is your objection their manner of trying to influence their offspring

(incidentally my father is very broad minded and evangelical and neither me nor my brother showed any sign of going down either of the routes Ageyev is worried about)

'He shows an unmistakable correlation between things like regular church attendance, and things like not beating children to within an inch of their lives.'

I'm sure this falls within the ball not man rule, but that last sentence is unreal. It implies your either a fundamentalist or a child beater. FFS! Personally I wouldn't read any further if that's the tone of his argument.

I agree with some of your points regarding the represiveness of some Christian households. Some.

I also agree with your points about the large number of Christians inside jails.

However, in the spirit of fairness, you might want to point out that most of those Christians "convert" to Christianity once they’re inside the walls. Most were not Christians when they went inside. Some find it easier (as is the case in America) to receive early release if they participate in Christian based programmes.

I grew up in a Catholic home and was taught to respect, value and be kind to others. I think it is individual parents that make good parents and not their religion. I have met good and horrible on both sides.

Was that survey restricted to NI, Steveo? Hardly the most unbiased population samples in the world.

I have no trouble at all believing these claims. You only have to look at Ian Paisley Junior.

Imagine what he'd be like if he was brought up by dope smoking hippies.

He'd probably have turned out to be a dope smoking hippy.

smg,
It must have been about 12 years ago - the survey was intended to "drill down" into the characteristics of evangelical young people, based on the premise that they were/are more likely to go to university and gain professional careers.

In general, they were believed to have a higher level of academic achievement from 2nd level education onwards.

(Never saw any published findings though)

I knew a dope smoking hippy once. His name was Henry!! He use to play Tom Waits songs. I am not making this up!! :-)

Annie McG

Well you won't believe this but I put on Frank's Wild Years just before I logged in. It's the only Waits album I have.

Is anyone else going to Dylan?

Yes, Henry I am.

Lets hope he doesn't turn up with a sour bake on and whine down the microphone, like he did at Maysfield when I saw him years ago.

The Thrills should be good stuff too.

Total B.S.

God Save The Queen.

Off course Protestants are better than Fenians in all regards.Martin Luther saw the Pope and the corruption that existed in Rome.He formed the Protestant culture of which the Ulster Nation is part.

There will be No Surrender to the Papacy, Dublin or Republicanism.

God Save Ulster.

Matt meet Brian, Brian meet Matt, a match made in heaven

Come down off the drugs Matt ;)

I think it makes little difference. You'll find bad parents in all walks of life. I know bad parents who are protestant, and some who are catholic also. Your religious beliefs don't make you a good parent.
The story is based on surverys ... nuff said.

Come down off the drugs Matt ;)

I think it makes little difference. You'll find bad parents in all walks of life. I know bad parents who are protestant, and some who are catholic also. Your religious beliefs don't make you a good parent.
The story is based on surverys ... nuff said.

....but whats the implication in this piece , Mick , that evangelicals are behaviorally if not genetically superior to others or(ergo) that the one man one vote thingy needs to be repealed in NI due to this shock finding?

I suspect the only thing this points to is the consistency of Mr. Vances perspective.

Well said ME. Well said. Unfortunately these 2 are part of the past that refuses to go away. Waste that clogs up the facilities. Brian does not represent Nationalism. He represents the conservative wing of Republicanism.

These two are dinosaours that refuse to go away and refuse to realize that their time has come and gone.

Henrry- I always listen to Hang on St. Cristopher in the car. Great song for the traffic jams here in Massachusetts.

Henry the hippy lived in Tuffs Lodge. Is it you?

What with me being brought up a Cat lick and all we didn't engage in that much bible study at home. But I do remember that one of the Ten Commandments was Honour thy father and mother.

Now, given the above, I would say that if you asked a Christian evangelical what he/she thinks of his/her father, they are perhaps less than likely to deviate from the party line laid down by Moses.

But maybe in debating the point we're giving the essayist too much credit.

After all, he concludes that Father's Day 'should be a day to defy political correction, and recall that every advanced human civilization, including the one that made everything around us that is any good, has been essentially patriarchal.'

Ahem. His da should give him a good clip round the ear.

I would have thought that it was obvious evangelicals make better dads in a patriarchal society. I would have also thought it was also obvious that Christians would find criteria that would result in Christians being the best.

Nothing to sing and dance about or should I say sit and in a corner and thank the Almighty for.

And certainly very few of the people I know who were raised under stringent religious conditions - Catholic and Protestant - are thankful for it. They certainly don't intend raising their own children in the same manner.

"less inclined to do housework". We all know those kind of dads.

Brian

What do you think about it, i'm sure you think its something about the orange klans.
I personally think that in this country you only have to look at the young offenders centres where it is mostly catholic youngsters who are doing time, I'm not saying that all catholics are bad parents but when you see the percentage thats inside then you start to question how people bring up their kids, I mean if parents turn a blind eye to joyriding which as everyone knows is mostly done in west belfast then they have only to take the blame for the way their kids turn out.
I would like Brian to let us know a bit about his childhood and how his parents treated him, I reckon Brian was like most of the republicans who never knew who their father was until they done a raffle on St.Patricks day and found out it was Ronnie Bunting Jnr,I also think he didnt see much of his mother because she was always moving guns and bombs for the IRA until she met her fate in gibralter.I think the only father he really knew personally was the one from his local chapel who like a lot of catholic boys had their backsides tampered with by their FATHERS in their chapels.

Henry - saw dylan on sunday at the Fleadh in London. Not a dylan fan myself but not bad for a 63year old. Christy was still the best act.

BRIAN

IS YOUR DAD RONNIE BUNTING JUNIOR?

Woodstock,

No harm to ya - but was there really any need for that outburst! I'm a prod like urself but still, that was entirely uncalled for. Grow up mate.

Woodstock,
"I think the only father he really knew personally was the one from his local chapel who like a lot of catholic boys had their backsides tampered with by their FATHERS in their chapels."

I find it quite sickening that you make light of child abuse.
Most child abuse occurs at the hands of relatives or people who are supposed to be caring for you, not the Catholic clergy.
There were thousands of cases of abuse by carers registered in the UK in the 90s, for example, but you seem to want to equate abuse with one religious creed for your own political gain.

How sad is that.

Inspired commentary there from woodstock.

"you only have to look at the young offenders centres where it is mostly catholic youngsters who are doing time"

Q.E.D. then. Nothing to do with social deprivation or anything like that. It's cos their parents are raised as Catholics! Hell, we should start rounding them all up and convert them at a young age.

Good grief.

As for your comments re Brian, you don't have to like his opinions, but that doesn't mean you have to resort to sectarian caricature. If you disagree with him on something, why not tell him why you disagree?

Annie:Henry... Fairport convention? Sandy Denny? Richard and Linda Thompson?
Richard Thompson? linda Thompson? Hard to beat!

"Protestant culture of which the Ulster Nation is part."

Your an Idiot Matt, wise up!

"Protestant culture of which the Ulster Nation is part."

Your an Idiot Matt, wise up!

Why do some of you equate Catholicism with bad parenting? In Italy and Spain the family unit is held in high regard and these are both predominantly Catholic countries.

I don't think religious denomination has anything to do with the quality of parenting. Other factors such as employment, health, income and attitudes are more important. Fundamentalist bigots of any persuasion (Christian or non-Christian) are more likely to be patriarchal (e.g. the Taliban in Afghanistan) and to pass attitudes of twisted bigotry and blind hatred on to their children.

When I said that fundamentalist fathers may find it difficult to cope when their children misbehave I meant that because of their entrenched "my word is law" attitudes they (1) cannot cope with deviant behaviour and (2) often drive their children to such behaviour because of their attitudes.

As regards the children of evangelicals being more likely to attend university, is this not a reflection of socio-economic status? Evangelicals who do not hold sectarian views are more likely to be middle-class and therefore send their children to university. This is a result of privilege, not parenting.

When religion is so closely linked to politics and tribal rivalry it is often the poor (on both sides) who, having no way out of their deprivation, see sectarianism as the only way to express their dissatisfaction.

The thread was meant to comment on Vance's narrow views and it predictably became a sectarian fest. Unfortnately, these type of people are the ones who receive media coverage.

Is it any wonder that other people across the world think were at each other's throats and drinking from different water fountains as if we were in South Africa in the Apartheid era?

Is it any wonder that other people across the world think were at each other's throats and drinking from different water fountains as if we were in South Africa in the Apartheid era?

Annie, I have to say it, that is how republicans themselves like to present NI, especially to Americans and especially to those of Irish descent... such comparisons as that made between the new voter registration system and the Jim Crow Laws being a fine example.

Perhaps in the past ME. But I can assure you that it is not the case any longer. You have to admit that things in the 60's and 70's were very similar to America's Jim Crow laws. You can not denny that. No one can. Our people were treated like dogs by the Unionist goverment.

I have not heard SF leaders compare the current situation with America's old Jim Crow Laws. We all know things are better for Catholics in NI and we all know that we have full participation in society to say something different is just not true.

Martin is a frequent visitor to Boston and I have yet heard him say anything of the sort.

Americans are easily misinformed as I am sure you are well aware, but I think if you see the big newspapers here, like The Boston Globe , the NYTIMES or the Post you will see that the situation is not painted in that way by republicans. Some old members of the old guard perhaps feel that way, but it is not the position of SF.

I think you might be guilty of assuming what you accuse us of.

Just for the record, the views expressed are NOT mine - as even the most cerebrally-challenged would understand if they actually bothered to read the link highlighed by Mick. (Many thanks BTW) I merely found the article novel WITHOUT expressing my opinion.

It is a pity that a topic cannot be discussed without descending into the usual whingefest.but then some things never change.

George

"how sad is that", the fact is that the catholic church has buggered kids over the years,Im not making fun of child abuse in anyway but just highlighting the facts.

Redhandcommanchie sorry redbranchknight

What was said to bRIAn or should I say bIRAn was totally justified and if you say that you are a prod then you would be agreeing with me after what he has mouthed off over the last week about killing prods, so get off your knees and stop licking his papish arse

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