Pandagon

The simple reason: they cost a heck of a lot less. I'll agree that Mac's are better in just about every way, just not twice the price better.

The only thing worse than a moronic brownshirt fuck is a moronic Macshirt fuck.

As one who has spent plenty of time trying to bail Macinistas out of the vast and numerous problems their computers cause them, I say there's a very good reason less than 5% of the computer population uses them, and it's not just the overinflated price.

My God, Ezra. Were you trying to start a bloody war today? What, the fighting in Najar isn't enough for you? Sheesh...

The humanity!

I still wish I could use Soulseek effectively. I tried that whole patch thing and couldn't get it to work. If anyone wants to help, let me know.

Other than that, Macs kick ass.

I like how dave doesn't back up his bluster... probably because he can't. Alas.

I just bought my first Mac. Doesn't seem any more intuitive to me than my PC, and I've had just as many problems with it. Nevertheless, I like it lots and it shore is purty. The UNIX kernel is what had me sold...plus the great form factor of the iBook.

Three reasons:

1)Cost. The things are bloody expensive

2)The interface sucks. One mouse button? Dragging files from a disk to the desktop creates a shortcut to the file, not copies it? The tool bars appear to cover one another up all the time.

3)Tools. Ever try to program on a mac?

I should point out that I haven't tried to program on a mac since they incorporated the new Unix kernel, so number three may no longer be operative.

If everyone used Macs, the viruses would all be made for them. So that argument is out of there.

Honestly, it really is the price issue in most cases. I built my own PC with 2 processors and a gig of RAM for less than $1,500, including the monitor. At the rate Apple's going, $1,500 will get you an iPod.

Support is a matter of ignorance, not quality. I've never had a major problem on my XP machine because I know how to use the damn thing and run utilities and upkeep software properly. Unlike every studio I worked at, where Macs not only crashed, but now don't even come with reset buttons. The symbol for a Mac-run office should be an unfolded paper clip.

Availability seems to be a bit of a stretch, as every post, like this one, about how you can get something for the Mac reflects on the excitement because it had only been for PCs before then. That something coming out for Mac a year or two after it's been on PC isn't exactly a gloating issue.

After the Classic Mac Era, Apples became pretty insipid until OS X. Now I have one. It's great. Windows XP is a primitive, crashy hunk of shit in comparison. It just boggles the mind that Microsoft pours so much into their OS and comes out with something like this.

Apples are overpriced, though, and the company resorts to some cheesy Microsoft-lite tactics, like locking out competitors' webcams from iChat. And they'll juice their eager cult out of a bunch of money every time there's an OS upgrade.

I'm still waiting for Linux to be as friendly as this stuff...when it does, it's all over.

Kenneth - Of course I was! I opened the Mac v. PC debate. But it's all in good fun.

Also, I'd like to add...although I can't stand the obnoxious, yuppie Mac iPod cult...that almost every Windows machine I've seen lately has been infested with spyware. My buddy's computer boots up claiming to be "powned," and even Ad Aware won't get rid of it.

It seems like a common misnomer that viruses would hurt Macs as badly if everyone used them...but their Unix-based system is just much more smartly designed. Not sure about Apple's ".dmg" auto-install thing, though, I wonder if that's exploitable.

Commodore for life.

Not misnomer. Misconception

Hey, I was an Amiga man myself. After working and slaving to get that lovely, beautiful honest-to-God Quake running in a postage stamp at five frames a second, I decided that I wanted to actually be able to have a large selection of inexpensive software.

I also have to try and help my lady friend with her Mac woes, and there ain't nothin' like sorting out interface and functionality differences over the phone. Well, maybe buffing your eyeballs with sharkskin.

Where to start?

Has anyone who criticized the mac even used one?

The big rebuttal:
1. dragging files doesn't make an alias, it copies. I don't know where exactly you got that idea, but it is incorrect.

2. The interface is far more advanced than windows XP. Let's look at examples like expose. Sure the dock might be questionable, but it certainly doesn't suck.

3. apple hasn't locked any cameras out of ichat. there are plenty of 3rd party cameras that work with ichat.

4. if you compare mac and PC prices feature for feature you'll find that macs are pretty comparably priced to PC's. Especially when you factor in the total cost of ownership. I'm still using a nearly 6 year old machine as one of my primary machines. How many 6 year old PC's are running the newest operating systems and the newest photoshop version happily?

You'll always have your mac zealots and your PC geeks, I've been on both sides and I have to say that the mac side is much more rewarding. That isn't to say that there aren't benefits to both. . . but the mac is the best of mac AND unix now. If the pc world doesn't have something, you can just go to the linux world and recompile 4 different versions to run on the mac now.

the mac is superior and your arguments otherwise have so far been relatively invalid.

Kevin: #3 is definitely inoperative now. The system comes with absolutely wonderful developer tools. And if you don't like the one-button mouse, you can spend twenty bucks and get a mouse with more buttons. I have five programmable buttons, myself.
I will not even mention viruses, she lied.

*rolls eyes*

Use what you like best. I personally can't abide the Mac interface, and I don't find the hardware all that attractive, but I don't give a good goddamn if you feel the opposite.

I'd get a Mac if only it had one button: full maximize.

The plus sign doesn't cut it for me.

As part of a mixed household (I have a PC, my spouce has a G4) I must say that it wasn't the price differential for me, nor was it the software, ease of use, or cool look of the apple that caused me not to buy one. Heck, I grew up with Macs. My mother and father were both on the cutting edge of computer technology. In 1984 we had three Macs apple talked to the Laserwriter Plus in my father's study. I loved my Mac. (by the way, the Laserwriter Plus finally died...last year. It was rated for 1 million pages. They don't make them like that anymore).

But I work in an office. That office has PCs, and if I want to do things which are completely compatible with my work computer I better do them on a PC. I had no choice but to go to the dark side of the force.

So I use a PC and play on my Husband's Mac.

Hmmm...that sounds mildly obscene.

It's the one mouse button. My mouse has 5 buttons and a frickin' wheel. Now compare that to having to alt-control-meta-apple-click to bring up a context menu.

2)The interface sucks. One mouse button? Dragging files from a disk to the desktop creates a shortcut to the file, not copies it? The tool bars appear to cover one another up all the time.

Yeah, I hate that shit too.

Other than that, though, I like the iBook a lot.

" dragging files doesn't make an alias, it copies. I don't know where exactly you got that idea, but it is incorrect.

2. The interface is far more advanced than windows XP. Let's look at examples like expose. Sure the dock might be questionable, but it certainly doesn't suck.

Well, I have numbe rone happen to me quite a bit, especially on Imcas. Not an expert with Macs, so its possible that I was doing something worng, but it seemed an odd thing to be so intuitively incorrect

And number 2 is a personal preference thing. I just find getting around in Windows much easier than Macs -- the lack of anothe mouse button and the odd docking behavior just really throw me.

"Kevin: #3 is definitely inoperative now. The system comes with absolutely wonderful developer tools. And if you don't like the one-button mouse, you can spend twenty bucks and get a mouse with more buttons. I have five programmable buttons, myself. "

Thats nice to hear. At some point, I had planned to put X on my wife's Imac, bu the expensive never seemed justified. Now, however, if it has cool toys ... :)

Windows XP is a primitive, crashy hunk of shit in comparison.

I've been using XP eight or nine hours a day for almost a year now, and my machine has not crashed once. Not a single time.

I'm no Microsoft apologist, but I have to say your experience with XP is nothing like mine.

Honestly, can someone give me a good reason why Hyundai Elantras are better than BMW's anymore?

It's the one mouse button. My mouse has 5 buttons and a frickin' wheel. Now compare that to having to alt-control-meta-apple-click to bring up a context menu.

This is easily overcome. MS and Logitech mice both work with OSX, and all the explorer buttons are fully assignable and functional. The right-click context menu works everywhere the meta-clicks would.

I've been using XP for over a year now, and I use it all the time. The only time I ever have problems, it boils down to buggy software...not buggy OS.

Then again, I know what I'm doing, and keep the system clean and up to date (not that it's any effort. It does it automatically).

On the other hand, when I installed XP Pro for my father, I made sure to lock off most of the Admin tools from him.

I've never used a Mac so I can't comment on that part of this post (do they really still have only one button)? But in response to the crashy comment directed at WinXP I don't know where that even comes from. I go entire weeks without rebooting and have no problems with programs crashing or the such.

Except Internet Explorer, god what a piece of shit. Thank you Firefox for delivering me.

PCs used to suck pretty bad in comparison to Macs - before about 97 or so. I got rid of my last Mac in 99 and have never looked back. Well, last week I had to use one at my sister's place. Yuck. I can't believe some of the crap that still isn't fixed with that OS. Since Windows 2000 it's been pretty smooth sailing over here. Plus our computers can look like whatever we want, not what the Apple cult wants them to look like that year.

As a recent convert (ibook G4 933), I must say that the mac is a attractive and functional machine. The install/uninstall procedure is much simpler on the mac (one icon for one program, mostly). Very nice. The applications (ilife, garageband, etc) are very intuitive, and navigation is just as easy. Wireless networking with the base station was up and running in 15 minutes, no sweat. Fast user switching is a great feature with people in the household I don't want messing around with certain files, and nothing touches the majick of expose. Win2k (i use at work) is now just clunky. I am at ease with one mouse button, if that changes, I'll buy a TWO button mouse and plug it in! Now to get down to figuring out this whole disk image/mounting thing, why so many new terms??

And yes, acqusition kicks ass. much easier than the winmx/kazaa/piolet/morpheus p2p's I've been using before on the PC. May even be worth paying for, even!

Other Mac P2P apps:

BitTorrent: have to find the torrent files on the web but it rules once you have them (try Supernova.org). Full movies, TV shows, other large files.

Edonkey: GUI sucks but the CLI client is good. I just use it for MST3k eps from the DAP but some people swear by it for music and videos.

Poisoned: compliments Acquisition well. What major P2P networks Acq doesn't hit this one does.

LimeWire: old school Gnutella client.

Mmmmm ... Mac vs. PC, the perennial debate.

The obvious reason more folks don't use Macs is cost. Look how cheap Dell et al. are these days - a generic comp including monitor starting at ~$500 or so, and you can build your own PC for cheaper.

Macs are well-made machines, though not necessarily error-free - my officemate recently had to return his Mac to the dealer due to a video card issue.

They have plenty of software, except for maybe games. But even PCs have shit selection for that compared to XBox, Playstation, etc.

My feeling is if you want a Mac get a Mac. If you want to push one system over another I'll laugh at your nerdiness. :)

I love my Mac. I would never switch. Never. I've tried Windows extensively, and I hate it. Here are my reasons:

1.) Apple makes the fastest personal computers on the planet. The G5 2.0 ghz is faster than the newest Intel processors, one reason why Virginia Tech used them to make the 3rd fastest (and the cheapest) supercomputer cluster on the planet.

2.) Macs ARE the easiest to use. If you've been using Windows for years and jump onto a Mac, or vice versa, yes you will have a learning curve. But Macs have been easier to use since 1984. Macs do not have to deal with old DOS code or stupid Windows quirks (like requiring three letter codes such as .doc at the end of every file name), Macs have real plug and play, much more secure code (in three years, NO viruses have been reported on OS X), a better looking interface, fewer crashes (OS X 10.2 has never crashed on me) and most of all they are FUN and POWERFUL.

3.) They are slightly more expensive (a few hundred bucks at most), but you are getting quality and substance for those extra dollars. Top of the line components, award winning design (ala iPod), reliability, and sturdiness. Macs last longer and require less service -- it's been documented. Because too few people buy them, they have to have slightly higher margins than other companies. They can't make just $50 profit per computer like Dell and stay alive. If more of you switched, that would change.

4.) These computers are actually designed, not thrown together from shelf components. Apple also invests in R&D;, providing more innovations for Microsoft to copy. If you want a Walmart computer, go ahead and get a PC. If you want a kick-ass futuristic reliable multiplatform machine, get a Mac.

5.) If you work in video editing, graphics design, sound editing, music, or publishing, Macs are the standard.

6.) Gaming is not tops on the Mac (though still pretty good), which is why I recommend the Xbox or the PSX.

7.) Things that require setting up on Windows, they simply WORK on a Mac. If you have an Airport card and you go into a hotspot, it simply connects automatically. With Windows, you usually have to dick around with settings and control panels until you can finally make a connection. It's these little things that are the biggest difference.

Windows users need to think about it. If the Mac wasn't better, would it still survive today? Would I pay more money for a niche computer if I thought it was second-rate? Absolutely not. If only the other 95% would open their eyes and realize that just because everyone else seems to own a PC doesn't mean they have to own one as well. My dream is a world where 50% run Windows and 50% run Macs. This monopoly does no one any good, except Microsoft.

If everyone used Macs, the viruses would all be made for them. So that argument is out of there.

So that gives you, what, 5 to 10 years of virus-free computer time?

My PC is a gaming machine. That is the primary (but not only) reason I have a PC (or four).

Oddly, the only thing that has ever crashed my XP device (mind you, I'm an IT professional, so my experience is not typical) is...wait for it...

My IPOD!:)

I love my IPOD. Got it for free at a business conference. Not bloody likely I ever would have payed $300 for it.

Except Internet Explorer, god what a piece of shit. Thank you Firefox for delivering me.

Opera all the way baby. Bought and paid for even:)

Plus, I think it's made by European Commies or something like that.

I'm sick of this "oh, if people actually used Macs there'd be viruses for them" nonsense. There's plenty of mac haters out there (just look at this thread!) that if one could code a virus for them easily plenty of people would have done so by now.

Some of it is faulty code at MS, sure. But most of it is the default settings that Microsoft sets leave your computer wide open to attacks and most users don't know how to change them.

Macs are pretty locked down straight out of the factory. Now, to some extent, they're a bit more usable in the fully-locked-down state, but Windows machines aren't bad once you've locked them down like that too.

The problem is, there's some bells & whistles with Windows that don't work if they're properly locked down and MS wants to be able to advertise those. So you get swiss cheese security.

PCs are better for one simple reason: they are cheaper. Who cares what OS the hardware comes with? I am going to throw that proprietary piece of bit-shit away anyhow.

And while Mac hardware is decent, it is overpriced, and it is closed, proprietary bullshit. I go for Freedom.

Thus, it is easier to put a version of *BSD or Linux on a PC.

Search Gamespot by Platform:

Mac - roughly 150 games found

PC - 3954 games found

As an artist, I love working on Macs, but I'll be damned if I _play_ with one.

Two words:

Right Click.

Hardware lock-in is the reason why I would advise against anybody getting a Mac. When you devote yourself to a particular file format, you should have a good feeling that you'll be able to affordably replace the part in the near future.

Unlike a lot of people, to me Apple isn't a benign company, they're as bad as the worst.

The other thing is, you only get how much out of a computer as you put in to it. My experience with troubleshooting Macs, is that it's a lesson in futility. Too much is hidden from the user and too obscure to make it plainly better. The OS is pretty much equivilent, it's just different languages, per se. But it's no better.

And the reason you don't see many viruses on Macs is basically one of people with those computers. They do less damage. You can write a virus to get around pretty much anything.

I should add that I want you to use whatever OS you want. I am fine with Mac, Windows, and anything else. We should be free to choose, and they should all interoperate.

I can evangelize about Debian Linux with the best of them. And in the process, piss off both Mac and Windows users.

The only point of this, though, would be to illustrate just how fcsking stupid it is to evangelize in the first place. (I'm looking at you, Mac users).

Two reasons:

1) Macs are extremely easy to use, as long as you use them in a way completely anticipated by the OS designer. Once you deviate, it becomes extremely more difficult.

2) MS is putting out a new OS in '06ish that will put OSX to shaaaaaaaaaame.

I used to be a PC user/ Mac hater but now I heart my Mac! Why? Because I can barely remember what the Microsoft "blue screen of death" looks like. The Mac just works- I've never had a problem. And anyone who thinks you can't right click on a Mac is sadly mistaken. OS X can kick Windows' ass any day.

You're all insane. WebTV (or MSNTV) is great!

The batteries in my wireless logitech optical mouse die fairly quickly, so once a week or so while waiting for them to recharge, I use a single button mouse. To right click on items, I hold down the CONTROL key just before I click the mouse button.

I happened to investigate Mac OS X internet security issues recently. Bottom line: any programmable computer can be attacked with viruses and malware. That there exists few, if any, viruses for macs doesn't mean there won't be any later. And Mac OS X is WIDE OPEN to certain forms of spyware designed to collect shopper information.

All my PC's are networked. My Mac aint.

Honestly, can someone give me a good reason why PC's are better than Macs anymore?

I desire a powerbook, but when push comes to shove, I'd rather put 1100 into a decent PC laptop and put linux on it than have a super-fancy BSD machine for 2500 (or 3400 to get the one I truly lust after). Which then gets me a faster OS, lets me do anything I need to (I still use a commandline mp3 player, so my needs may not be yours), and my conscience can still justify the cost.

I'd love to play with the Mac kids, but I do just fine with linux.

How's that for a reason?

ok as a mac user, i have to say im sorry about Sage, Hollywood..
he is a bit kooky. As such here is a mac user refuting that comment

1) Apple does not make the fastest personal computers on the planet. They have been successfully sued over this. The G5's are good, and price/performance is competitive vs a equivalent Dell.
Virginia tech bought apple on price. The G4's suck though. If you buy a apple laptop, your buying a overpriced underpowered over-hyped piece of crap of a processor. heh and after all that i still bought a tiBook a few months ago.

2) It depends on which function your attempting to do. But no, macs dont have the de facto standard easiest to use.

3) They are actually around the mean value.. some equivalent pcs are more, and some a little less. In other-words this is a none issue if you want a COMPLETE system.

4) I think you dont know what the fuck your talking about. PC's run more operating systems then any other platform. Operating systems get ported to the powerpc ( like OS X :P ha-ha) Both Microsoft and dell have larger R&D; budgets then apple.

5) Somewhat true.

6) Gaming is on life-support on the mac. Its ok with me who only ever plays some warcraft 3 and neverwinter from time to time.

7) Once again, somethings are better ont he mac and visa versa.
But i must say Wireless support on OS X is bar none the easiest.
In addition imho its the best platform for war-driving.

8) ( u didn't number it but ) Your never gunna convert many people. Your attitude is all wrong.

I always liked this (http://gottsilla.net/) better than aquisition.

issac,

Thanks for the breakdown of that absurd post by sage. Macs have a purpose, but one thing I don't miss is the insane hype (do they still call it the Jobs RDF?) parroted by the masses of mac-lovers, along with the bitter Gates-haters raving about blue screens of death.

He lost all credibility with that "gaming is pretty good on the mac" bit.

The links at their "Switch" site don't work if you use Mozilla Firebird/Firefox.

I don't think I'll switch.

They work just fine in Firefox. I think you're on crack.

Can I once again go with how the Mac interface is incredibly terrible? One mouse button. No task bar, no maximizing and minimizing...as long as Mac keeps with all that crap, I'm not getting a mac.

One reason people don't like Macs may be that they have bad experiences with public ones, which seem to be much more unreliable than ones that only one person uses. I work in a computer lab, but am not a computer person, and I must say that the Macs either A) do not recognize when a disk has been placed in a drive, B) cannot print something the way it appears on the screen, C) force one to manually force a disk drive open, D) suddenly freeze up with no prior warning like running slowly, or E) demand rebooting into another OS in order to open an application, maybe 50 times as often as the IBMs.

So maybe IBMs become less reliable the more you use them, and Macs are unreliable at the beginning until you get used to them. Unfortunately this doesn't give a good impression to those who travel from computer lab to computer lab using 10 computers a week.

Just to throw a "spanner in the works", I work in recording studios in Los Angeles. And my estimate is that 85% of albums made today are recorded at least partially, if not totally, using Digidesign's ProTools software & hardware, typically on G4s with at least 1GB of RAM, using external FireWire or SCSI disk drives.

Digidesign has recently gotten active toward the XP user, but the recording industry is still a Mac world.

Also, MGM, and several other film companies, as well as post production facilities, use FinalCut Pro, on G4s, to edit many of the films we are seeing today.

And as I am a Mac fan, keep in mind that I am writing this on an HP PIII/600Mhz I use for office junk at home.

Multiple mouse buttons are supported by OS X (and, indeed, earlier versions of MacOS). They ship with the single-button mouse for old-school users who still like that. Spend $10 on a USB mouse and plug it in; it'll work.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at with "no taskbar" but the dock works remarkably like the Windows taskbar; indeed, I'd argue it's better as it's usually less cluttered.

Windows can, indeed, be maximized and minimized on Macs, also.

So, if those are your three criteria, then no, you can't say the interface is bad; you're wrong.

I simply don't understand why people think Mac's interface is easier to use. This has never been true in my experience; I suppose it could be true of the majorly computer illiterate, people who are deeply confused by the presence of two mouse buttons (for instance). But there are so many aspects of the Mac interface that are clearly -worse- for these people: for instance, the idea that an application stays open after you close all its windows is counterintuitive; their terrible record on backwards compatibility discourages users, especially inexperienced ones, from upgrading; and so on. And the excessively smoothed-over interface makes intermediately advanced tasks much more complicated than they are in Windows, which discourages inexperienced users from learning. And then there's the total lack of any online help, which it seems like inexperienced users would need more than most people.