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Government Involvement [17 Dec 2004|02:36pm]

masticatus
I've been reading in a book some of you may know. It is an "Uncle Eric" book called Are You Liberal? Conservative? or Confused?. Richard Maybury (the author) is, what he calls, a juris naturalis - which is pretty close to the Libertarians. I've also been reading in Leo Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.

Now, my good friend and I refer to where we stand on political issues as Armchair Anarchy. I believe in the political ideal of anarchy, but with the reality that humans are involved so government should basically be limited to one purpose: to destroy itself. (Do not confuse this political term with the common usage - read up on rational-anarchy, or free market-anarchy). This is pretty much where "Uncle Eric" sits.

"That government is best which governs least." - Thomas Jefferson

As I've been reading in Maybury's book, he explains how political power is basically evil. 1 Samuel 7-8 shows where God shares about what government is, evil. All humanity is basically under what is referred to as Natural Law, that is 1) do what you say you will do, and 2) do not encroach on other people's liberty or property. Governments are just like any other human institution except for one thing: the ability to violate both these laws.

"It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately." - Thomas Jefferson

As I've been reading Tolstoy, he explains that the purpose of government was to protect people from each other, but it fails in that it does more harm to the people than individuals ever could. I pondered this thinking about how much harm people have committed to each other without the guise of "government" compared to how much devastation is wrought by governments, and in the name of governments. It's pretty ridiculous to claim that just as much, or more apocalypses would have become if there were no government in place.

Maybury explained fascism is when a government does what it feels is necessary instead of what is right. He compared it with how the government has been running here in the States for many years now.

So if we grab all of this, and we analyze it, we see that government should operate under what is "right."

Recently Pinochet of Chile was arrested and will be brought up on charges for acts he oversaw while he was the dictator of Chile. He allegedly had killed a few thousand people for certain offenses against his reign. I was thinking about how absurd this was... These people were dangers to the Government. Isn't it necessary to get rid of dangers? What country doesn't suppress uprisings against them? Pinochet created a government that was pretty strong, their economy was pretty good, he just controlled a lot. So who decides at what level you can operate? France, England, India, the United States? Where is the line between a few people being killed by police in a protest and Tienanmen Square? Where is the line between sentencing one man to death for treason and 3,000? Who says what conduct is OK in someone else's country? What are a couple thousand deaths for the greater good of millions of other citizens? It's ok to kill people in a foreign country for the good of yours, but it's wrong to kill people in your own country for the good of all?

"How many does it take to annul the commandments of God, and render that lawful, which HE has forbidden? How many does it take to metamorphose wickedness into righteousness? One man must not kill. If he does it is murder. Two, ten, one hundred men, acting on their own responsibility, must not kill. If they do, it is still murder. But a state or nation may kill as many as they please, and it is no murder. It is just, necessary, commendable and right. Only get people enough to agree to it, and the butchery of myriads of human beings is perfectly innocent." - Adin Ballou

What government is good, and what political power isn't corrupt?

So I've been taking the long way around to ask, ultimately, what is the Christian's measure of involvement is government? Can we be involved at all in government?

2 Corinthians 6:14, 15
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and [Government]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

How does this verse relate to our commitments and our social duties given by the governments? Doesn't the entire government ideal tie us with everyone around us, believer and unbeliever alike? A bond we often hold higher than that of the Church...

I think it would do us good to understand what Jesus meant by "My kingdom is not of this world" as we are its subjects foremost. Paul tells the Corinthians that there are many kings, but God is our King. Isn't it our goal to please our Father, not to please the world?

1 Peter 2:11-12
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.


1 Samuel 8:10-12, 19-20
Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots... But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."
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[14 Dec 2004|12:04am]
dravenashton
I just heard a preacher say that a husband loses his authority if he is not being a Godly husband/father. Personally I think this is bogus and I don't see any scriptural basis. I acknowledge that sometimes men abuse their authority, but I know of no scripture at all to say that abuse dismisses authority. Thoughts on this belief?
6 comments|post comment

Denying Christ in deed [11 Dec 2004|07:10pm]

masticatus
Hypothetical questions for ponderance:

Is it right or wrong to lie in defence of your own life?

Is it right or wrong to lie in defence of another person's life?

Because I don't merely want to leave it at that: When God gives us His promises, and we doubt he will come through so we take it into our own hands, is this denying his providence and sustainence? This correlates with the questions I've asked. When God tells us a way to live, and we chose his way isn't quite working out for us, so we lie in our defence, isn't this denying that God's way is right and perfect?

And why would lying be wrong? If Nobody knows except you and God, but your life is spared, does it matter? Or in the second hypothetical, if you disobey Christ's command to defend someone else's life, is this OK because you're defending their life even when there are no physically adverse effects?

Consistency is key here, I believe. Where do we allow ourselves the luxury of obeying only when it's conveinient? We can take the right way of living when it's not hard, but when something is challenging us, it's OK to disobey?

This part could possibly be ignored in this discussion for now, but it attaches itself and is worth thinking about: If it's wrong to lie to someone to protect your life, why is it right to injure or kill this person to defend your life? If it's wrong to lie to defend someone else's life, why is it right to injure or kill someone to defend their life?

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." - John 14:15

"He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’” Mark 7:20-23

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matt 5:38, 39

"To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly." 1 Pet 2:21-23

Discuss and be blessed by God.
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A rock He cannot lift [09 Dec 2004|04:12pm]

masticatus
Sin cannot be in the presence of God, or so it is taught.

Jesus becams sin for us.

Discuss.
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click to make a difference [08 Dec 2004|05:19am]

curieuse
By clicking the link below you can fill out a very short survey and Opportunity International will get a $10 donation. And with the work they do, $10 can make a huge difference over time. Please consider it.

http://www.opportunity.org/site/apps/ka/ct/contactcustom.asp?c=7oIDLROyGqF&b;=219256

If you want to know more about their work (it's AMAZING) go to their main page at http://www.opportunity.org/ . From there you can get to the survey thing by clicking the image that says "Ebinger Family Challenge."
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[30 Nov 2004|12:18am]
dravenashton
[ mood | want coffee ]
[ music | Funker Vogt - Final Thrill [Remix By Christian Micheal Of Flatline] ]

(for those of you who read my personal journal, you may have read this)

God brought a kid named James Eason into mine and my parents lives this weekend. he showed up at the house on friday when my dad and i were taking the roof off the house looking for work. well my dad agreed to give him some work to do and pay him hourly. he worled here half a day on friday and a full day on sat and today. well it turns out that he has a really sad story. he comes from a totally broken home back in north carolina, and he was forced to start working at like 12. he came out here with a guy who promised a job and place to stay, which of course, was a lie. so when james got out here, he had nothing and knew no one. so he was on the street. long story short, he met up with a mexican guy who gave him a place to stay until he can find his own place, and he met up with us looking for work because he needed cash. i guess he used to go to church, and after working around here for the weekend, he seems very interested in going back. praise God for that. but yeah, i guess hes going with me to the christmas program at my church. God works in mysterious ways, and puts some different people in our lives. we should thank him and always be looking for oportunities to serve and whitness by our love...this whole thing with James has re-affirmed the fact that a little love and kindness can really make a difference in a life. amazing. but keep him in your prayers, he'll need it.

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[27 Nov 2004|08:32pm]

everydaywar
[ mood | alright ]
[ music | Life Support Addiction - Refused ]

Thought I'd join the community (again), how is everyone?

Does anyone know what's happened to the hxcboards?

My username was/is ZERO.

P.S. I want to have gay love from Jeffry and Steve both at the same time.

12 comments|post comment

[23 Nov 2004|12:13am]
dravenashton
i take no stance on this yet, but what seperates "carnal desires" from insticts instilled in us seeing as we are made in the image of God?
3 comments|post comment

[22 Nov 2004|07:30pm]
dravenashton
why do people take christ in his not resisting an evil man so literally, and yet these same people have not sold all they own and given it to the poor, and then followed christ. which of christs sayings shall we take literally as theyre stated? this is opening up a can of worms, oh well.
13 comments|post comment

[21 Nov 2004|10:05pm]

attaboy87
Ok, so I've been debating with some of my Christian friends about war and the gosple. I'm new to being against war so I'd like some biblical help here. I have three points I need help with.

(1) On Matt 5, "Resist not the evil man", one of their points was "If me and my wife were sleeping in bed and a thief breaks into our house and starts beating my wife I should let him continue to beat her?" I was stumped on this.

So, how does self defense and Christ's pacifism work together?

(2) Also, they asked, after I asked about "how does war clothe and feed our enemy?", they responded basicly with how the people of Irag now have food, water, and clothing, they are better off now than in the past. I said "so the end justifies the mean?", and they went off on how horrible their former government was and they needed to be liberated.

Peter says in Acts 5 "We must obey God, rather than man". but in 1 Peter 2 we are told "For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully."

So, at what point should we "rebel" against an ungodly oppressors?

(3) And we talked about how we are in the New Covenant. I said, "how is killing your enemy loving them? You're just dispatching them to Hell" But they talked about how peopel went to Hell in the Old Covenant in all the wars when they died. I said "Well, were in the new covenant, we are supposed to love our enemy." They said that love is the fulfilling of the law, which was in the old testament.

In Matt 22 Jesus says that of all the commandments the most important is "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"

So, was killing an enemy army in the Old Covenant loving or not?



Thanks for the answers

Love in Christ,
dave
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View of scripture [19 Nov 2004|05:14pm]

masticatus
"The Old Testament can illuminate the New, it cannot contradict it or challenge it. 'Moses,' wrote Luther, 'has no longer either value or authority in the New Testament.’ The Old Testament is normative for us Christians only in so far as it supports a Christological interpretation; it cannot be normative directly, without intermediary of the Gospel of the Cross. For it speaks to us of Jesus Christ, not of morality. So we must begin by looking for answers in the New Testament." (Link)

What are your thoughts?
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[12 Nov 2004|10:00am]

lightmanx5
http://www.globalrichlist.com/ - How rich are you?

Comments: (link)

[05 Nov 2004|01:57pm]

masticatus
THEOLOGICAL Scripture Idolotry: do we as believers idolotrise the Bible just as the Stephen critisizes the pharasees in Acts chapter 7, or as tribal peoples idolotrize other things with in the created realm of things. (Click here to see)

Question for thought... [05 Nov 2004|11:29am]
dravenashton
Matt. 5:
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The correlation to letter and spirit of the law. You see the same comparison given in matt. 5 with murder. If you are angry (or hate) your brother, then you have committed murder in your heart. I would suggest the same holds through with theft and coveting. However both of those (theft and coveting) are both seperate commandments. That leads me to believe that the spirit was implied in the original law, but people ignored it. However, my question...is the spirit the same as the letter, or action carried out because of the spirit? Basically, is lust (or "adultery in your heart") the same as adultery? Is hate for a person the same as murder? And is coveting the same as theft? I know people hate the idea of gradation of sin, but I want to suggest there is such a thing. Now coveting a childs marble is just as appauling to God as brutally murdering a person, but is there a varying degrees of sin? I do see actual adultery as much worse than lust, however both are bad. Thoughts? I'm not expecting this view to be too popular, oh well.
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Whose Son is the Christ [04 Nov 2004|03:23pm]

lightmanx5
[ music | Poison the Well - A Wish for Things That Work ]

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
    " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
       "Sit at my right hand
   until I put your enemies
      under your feet." 'If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"
No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Matthew 22:41-46 (link)
Comment here: (link)

Homeless people and my money! [02 Nov 2004|02:04pm]

lightmanx5
[ mood | full ]
[ music | He is Legend - The Seduction ]

Today at lunch I gave a homeless man five bucks.

Good / bad / otherwise?

What are your thoughts? What does the Bible say on the subject? And what should we ultimately do in situations involving the homeless?

Comment here: (link)

[31 Oct 2004|04:07pm]

masticatus
While Moses was taking the People on the Exodus out of Egypt, God gave the Israelites His name: Merciful, Gracious [1].

Are we to expect that the old Law given to us is for us to follow without love, or as Jesus taught and demonstrated [2], and the Apostles teach us, that the old Law was a reflection of our fallen self, and how much we do depend on His mercy and grace every day [3]? Throughout history all man has relied on the mercy of our Father. We live amongst unrighteous men [4]. This is an example of God's mercy.

In stead of saying we need to judge them all, and lamenting the fact that we're surrounded by evil, we should be in awe of the goodness given to us by God. Jesus told us the rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous, as the sun rises on the righteous and unrighteous alike [5].

Was the law, then, also placed there to allow us to show mercy as God shows mercy to us [6]?

But we do need to also understand that there is no mercy without wrath [7]. There is no forgiveness without judgment. But this is what the Bible teaches us: we forgive others so we will be forgiven also [8]. We will be judged the measure we judge others [9]. We're taught that we will judge in the end, and to wait until then [10]. There is a day of judgment when all men will be judged, but it is the righteous Judge that will do the judgment [11]. “But," some would ask, "people shouldn't be judged now?" The scriptures do teach us that we are judged for our actions on earth. Isn't it a beautiful thing that Christ took our punishment so we are holy and blameless before the Father [12]?

But how do we forgive? If God gave His only Son's life in an act of forgiveness . . . if Christ died to express how much He loves us, how do we express this love God have given us? We're not given this love so we can keep it to ourselves to horde and hide, but to be overflowing with the love and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ [13].

Jude 1:22, 23 “Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.”

1) Exodus 34:6; Neh. 9:31
2) Matt. 8:2; 19:8; Mark 2:27; John 8:7
3) Rom. 3:20-30; 9:16; 11:32; Gal. 3:21-25; Titus 3:4-6
4) Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20; Rom. 3:10
5) Matt. 5:44-48
6) Matt. 5:48; 9:13; Rom. 14:10
7) Deut. 29:20; Rom. 1:18; Heb. 10:26-31
8) Matt. 6:14, 15
9) Matt. 7:1, 2
10) 1 Cor. 4:5
11) 2 Tim. 4:1, 2, 8; 1 Pet. 4:5
12) Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 1:22
13) 1 John 3:16; 4:9-12, 19-21

(Comment)

more fun! [29 Oct 2004|02:46am]
dravenashton
my thoughts on suicide and the christian...enjoy if you decide to read.
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Politics... I know, I know... [27 Oct 2004|10:34am]

lightmanx5
[ music | Extol - Jesus Kom Til Jorden for Å Dø ]

Does God have his "hand" in politics?

Leave a comment: (link)

true worship [21 Oct 2004|08:46pm]
xjollyrogerx
[ mood | mellow ]
[ music | the killers ]

Ok heres a question just to stur up some talkin. What do you think true worship means? What exactly is a true worshiper? Use references if you got um.

<3Jeffrey

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