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'Where Does Christmas Belong?'

The phrase "Merry Christmas" removed from a song in public schools. Christmas carols banned at a high school event. A religious-themed float denied entry in a local parade. The debate over where Christmas belongs is erupting across the country. Where do you stand on the issue?

Recent Controversies:
· Denver Parade
A Question of Faith for a Holiday Parade
By KIRK JOHNSON

Published: December 6, 2004


DENVER, Dec. 5 - For many years, this city's annual Parade of Lights was as bland as butter and content to be so. Organized by the local business community, the event shunned politics and anything remotely smacking of controversy, including openly religious Christmas themes that might offend.

The star was Santa, not Jesus, and the mood was bouncy, commercial and determinedly secular.

This year, Jesus came anyway. A local evangelical Christian church called the Faith Bible Chapel sought but failed to get permission for a religious-themed float with a choir singing hymns and carols. By coincidence, Denver's mayor chose this year to change the traditional banner on the roof of the City and County Building. "Merry Christmas" was out. "Happy Holidays" was in.

Like a spark in dry tinder, the result was a flare-up that caught even some church leaders by surprise. A holiday rite that had drawn thousands of paradegoers annually suddenly became a symbol, for many Christians, of secular society run amok.

So for the two nights of the parade, on Friday and Saturday, hundreds of Denver-area faithful headed downtown for a mild but determined protest: from the sidewalk, they sang carols about mangers, shepherds and holy nights, handed out hot chocolate and spoke of their faith.

Many people, including parade organizers who say they will re-evaluate their policies for next year, say the event might never be the same.

"I think it just went too far one way, and now maybe it will tilt back the other," said Lee Martinez, a member of the Faith Bible Chapel who came on Saturday to sing with his wife, Laura.

The controversy exploded in just the last few days, fueled by news reports and stoked by the members of the church and about a dozen allied congregations, with hundreds of e-mail messages sent to parade organizers.

Some say the protests, and a reversal by the mayor, John W. Hickenlooper, over the banner, after a similar outcry, show a new Christian assertiveness and energy. Others, including the senior pastor at Faith Bible Chapel, say they were surprised by the vehemence of the debate that emerged about the role of God and faith in a civic celebration.

But perhaps, as publicists like to say, ink is ink - a little controversy just added spice to the mix. Organizers say attendance at the parade, estimated at 375,000 over the two nights, was as strong as ever. And for some, like Mr. Martinez and his wife, it was the first time they had seen it in at least 15 years.

"Maybe this is a new tradition we've begun today," shouted Marcel Carter to the crowd of carolers on Saturday. Mr. Carter, the outreach minister at Restoration Christian Fellowship, an evangelical congregation in Aurora, was one of the congregations involved in the protest.

Some of the churches, including Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, promoted themselves even as the members sang, with free hot chocolate in cups emblazoned with the church's name, and handy lists of all the participating churches with addresses and a schedule of Christmas services.

Members of the Heritage Christian Center, an evangelical church in Denver, weaved their way down the jammed sidewalk handing out hot chocolate and free tickets to their Christmas pageant. It was the first time trying something like that, and church members said the moment just seemed ripe.

"We just wanted to come out and show them the love of God and what Christmas is all about," said Laverne Gillespie, who was leading the line with a thermos of chocolate.

The president of the Downtown Denver Partnership, which has run the parade since 1974, said that the group always did a post-parade evaluation but that this year the analysis would go deeper, with a discussion about what the parade was for, what local merchants got for their money and what the community wanted the event to be.

"This was always just supposed to be a cutesy parade, for the kids," said the partnership president, Jim Basey. "The purpose was to get bodies downtown."

Now, Mr. Basey said, judging by the tone of many of the e-mail messages he has received in the last few days, cutesy is not enough anymore.

"Many of the messages were the same - 'We're the majority, quit treating us like a minority and stop your political correctness,' " he said.

Mr. Basey said some business owners in the group have called him as well, and at least a few have said that if people want religion, let them have it. In other words, let the market determine the product.

"We heard from one of our directors who said, 'Gee, why don't you just do it? Throw some religion in and be done with it.' "

Some paradegoers, including many who were moved to sing along with the caroling protesters, said they thought it really was not about religion at all, but rather the deeper meaning of the holiday season that people were hungry for.

"Religious or not doesn't matter - it's the traditions that I want," said Lori Brocesky, a Denver resident who has come to the parade for the last eight years with her husband, Drew, and until this year never really found much to complain about. Now, she said, she wants to start a petition, to allow new voices and new perspectives from all sorts of groups, including churches.

The senior pastor at Faith Bible Chapel, George Morrison, who was in Tennessee this weekend at a speaking engagement, said in a telephone interview that he had no idea where his protest would lead.

"I never had the intention to have a campaign - this thing just took on a life of its own," he said. "It touched a chord."

Members of his church say that Mr. Morrison, a former marine who served in Vietnam as a helicopter gunner, is also not a man who likes getting pushed around.

"They picked on the wrong marine," said a congregation member, Juan Botero, taking a breather between carols.

· N.J. High School
Christmas Festivities Draw Scrutiny
Religion's Role in Public Celebrations Debated


MAPLEWOOD, N.J. (Dec. 7) - Members of the Columbia High School brass ensemble were not allowed to play Christmas carols at their holiday concert this year - not even instrumental versions.

At a school board meeting Monday night, parents and students alike expressed their outrage.

"This is censorship at its most basic level and political correctness to its extreme," said student Ryan Dahn.

"When you close that door you are supporting ignorance, and I think it's a very sad thing," said parent Melanie Amsterdam.

The controversy is by no means an isolated case. The role of religion during the Christmas season is a source of annual angst. But this year, people in "red," or Republican, America - particularly Christian conservatives - are in an unprecedented uproar.

They are sending letters to public schools in Chicago, where the words "Merry Christmas" have been excised from a popular song; boycotting Macy's, which has removed "Merry Christmas" signs from its department stores; and protesting the exclusion of a church group from Denver's annual Parade of Lights.

"What they don't understand is that by not wanting to offend anyone, they're excluding a huge group of people, and that is all of those of the Christian faith," said Doug Newcomb, business administrator of the Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, Colo.

Attorney Demetrios Stratis, affiliated with the conservative civil liberties group Alliance Defense Fund, is one of 700 Christian lawyers across the country poised to pounce on such cases.

"We just don't believe that you need to stamp out religion in the public square," he said.

There are those in Maplewood - and in "blue," or Democratic, America generally - who say religion should be a private matter.

"Holiday celebrations where Christian music is being sung make people feel different," said Mark Brownstein, a Maplewood parent. "And because it is such a majority, it makes the minority feel uncomfortable."

But Eric Chabrow, who is Jewish, says his son, Sam, should be able to play Christmas songs in the high school band. Chabrow is a part of "blue" America and generally supports the separation of church and state.

"I think that people have become a little too dogmatic in their beliefs on either side," he said. "And I think in this world today, we need to look at that center. I mean, the center in this country is vanishing. And maybe that's what's happening here."

He says there must be solutions that are neither "red" nor "blue" - just common sense.

Solutions may not be forthcoming: Christian lawyers may sue the Maplewood school board, while the school superintendent is vowing not to bend to outside pressure.


12-07-04 21:29 EST

Copyright 2004 ABC News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


"We just wanted to show them the love of God and what Christmas is all about." -- Laverne Gillespie, who protested the secular nature of Denver's holiday parade

"Holiday celebrations where Christian music is being sung make people feel different. And because it is such a majority, it makes the minority feel uncomfortable." -- Mark Brownstein, a parent in a town whose high school forbade a school band to play Christmas songs

"I think that people have become a little too dogmatic in their beliefs on either side." -- Eric Chabrow, a Jewish father who says his son should be able to play Christmas songs in the high school band

..go ahead protect everyone else by taking everything from the Christians. Yeah, that sounds fair.

Look at this crap: http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041208132009990010



My 'One Nation Under God' bumper sticker never meant more to me then at this moment.

My Mood: pissed off

Sorry I didn't post on the day the I came home from it but...


I went to the Army/Navy game on Saturday and President Bush was there! I was seated crazy close too, on the Army side by the 10th yard line in the 28th row of the first section... and he was so close! He flipped the coin, and sat on both Army and Navy sides. It...ROCKED! I saw Bush in person! Yea!! [Too bad I didn't meet him though...] It's all good though. By the way- Army got creamed... 42-13... It was a sad day for the cadets and the fans... [I still wore my Go ARMY! pin proudly though!]

My Mood: Yee Haw!

Do you think the draft will be reinstated and Roe v. Wade overturned during Bush's second term? Why or why not?

Ahh, we already knew this would happen, but there was that slim chance the democrats hoped they could still do something. Now if the Libertarians and the Green Party would stop demanding recounts and wasting taxpayer money, we would be in good shape.

Face it...the democrats lost, and the third party candidates also lost. Now for those who dont like that Kerry lost, Florida has cities in which there are ads for therapy and group sessions.

It's just a race. Get over it. America spoke and chose who they want.

Ohio Certifies Bush Win by 119,000 Votes

Posted by: Julie Wolfe, Reporter
Created: 12/7/2004 6:22:51 AM
Updated: 12/7/2004 6:23:19 AM

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP)- While Ohio has certified a 2 percentage-point election victory for President Bush, scrutiny of the vote was expected to continue for several more days.

Independent candidates were prepared to demand recounts in all 88 counties Tuesday, action that election boards say they're ready for but don't believe is necessary.

"Our experience with recounts based on our system in Allen County show either no change in our count, or one or two votes possibly," said Keith Cunningham, the county's election board director and incoming president of the Ohio Association of Election Board Directors.

Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell certified Bush as the winner Monday based on official results from county election boards, with the final tally of 2.86 million votes for the Republican, or about 51 percent of the vote, and 2.74 million or 49 percent for Democrat John Kerry.

The 118,775-vote lead was closer than unofficial election night results but not enough to trigger a mandatory recount. Absentee ballots and provisional votes counted after election night made most of the difference.

"Elections are human endeavors and as such they are never pefect," said Blackwell, a Republican. "But I can say with the fullest of confidence that this election in Ohio was perfectly inspiring."

The election hung on Ohio, a battleground state prized for its 20 electoral votes. Not until the morning after the election did Kerry, presented with the state's results, finally concede.

Presidential candidates for the Green and Libertarian parties raised the $113,600 needed to pay for the recount under Ohio law, and will write individual checks to all 88 counties.

Counties have 10 days to start those recounts, allowed under state law, following Blackwell's certification.

The recount's goal is "to ensure that every citizen's vote is properly counted," said John Bonifaz, general counsel for the Boston-based National Voting Rights Institute, which represents the independent candidates.

The candidates, David Cobb of the Green Party and Michael Bednarik of the Libertarian Party, together received less than 0.5 percent of the Ohio vote.

Recount advocates have cited numerous Election Day problems, from long lines, a shortage of voting machines in predominantly minority neighborhoods and suspicious vote totals for candidates in scattered precincts.

Republicans said the recount won't change anything.

"If there's a recount, there's going to be two losers — John Kerry and the Ohio taxpayer," said Mark Weaver, a lawyer representing the Ohio Republican Party. "It's going to cost more than $1.5 million to find out what we already know."

My Mood: accomplished

Who would you like to see elected President in '08 and why?

anti-michael moore is love
brought to you by the isLove Generator

My Mood: amused

republicans are love
brought to you by the isLove Generator

My Music: blessed the broken road - rascal flatts

Here's a picture of a beautiful liberal at a protest against Bush. Enjoy!:-)

 

( Let's see the bleeding heart behind that gorgeous caveman smile!!! )

My Mood: amused

Just want to say thank you to all of you guys who gave supporting comments to us sportsmen and sportswomen in my post from last Wednesday about the Wisconsin deer hunting shootings. Well, I went up to the northwoods of America's Dairyland over thanksgiving... I'm proud to say I got a really nice big doe, the deer are thinning out up there though... sadly no bucks.

If you guys want, I can post a picture of me with my deer, I'll put it in an LJ cut this time, don't worry. I'll get the pics back in a few days.

I saw what I'd call the "pro-life" mobile today in a fast food parking lot. It was a station wagon with over 40 bumper stickers on various places around the car talking about abortion and the Bible and God and whatever else. I may be pro-life, but I think that was a little extreme... especially because religion has no role in my pro-life stance. I just think an abortion is overused and is only needed when someone was irresponsible. But hey, why debate abortion when it's a moot point among us, since most of us are pro-life anyway?

I hope you guys all had a happy thanksgiving, I've been up since 4 am, and I've been driving all day, so I'm gonna hit the sack. G'night, everyone!

~Casey