READER COMMENTS ON
"Occupy Electoral Politics!"
(135 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 1:38 pm PT...
I never said that boycotting elections would establish a democracy. I said that boycotting elections is the only known and proven way to nonviolently delegitimize a government:
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1172
Since corporate interests currently control the Democratic and Republican parties, even if US voters turned out to vote for people who would represent their interests (and weren't just telling the usual campaign lies), those people would be a small minority in Congress with no seniority and no way to pass legislation.
The Constitution does not say anything about promoting the general welfare. That clause is in the preamble to the Constitution and the Supreme Court has found that the preamble is not part of the Constitution proper.
All teach-ins at Occupy San Diego are self-appointed and it states on the education website that they do not represent the consensus of Occupy San Diego. It is a matter of free speech to allow dissident opinions, not a consensus that Occupy San Diego holds dissident opinions. No credentials are required to hold teach-ins because Occupy San Diego believes that free speech is everyone's right, not just the right of those with power and influence.
I have explained many times how boycotting elections can delegitimize the corporatocracy, although out of respect for this forum I usually provide links rather than reposting my full explanations. Some of those links are:
You've Got to Stop Voting
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/
The Value of Voting
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1189
A Discussion with Occupiers about Representative vs. Direct Democracy
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1238
I'd be happy to supply more if anyone is interested. This being a political blog dedicated to working within the system, I rather doubt that anyone here is interested.
Embracing an undemocratic political process cannot establish a democracy. I explain that very clearly in "The Value of Voting."
The criminal class is ravaging the economy with the consent of the governed expressed by voting. It doesn't matter who people vote for, if enough people vote, the corporate interests can claim the consent of the governed for continuing corporate rule. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that the popular vote doesn't have to be counted, and more than 90% of US votes are counted by central tabulators which can be easily hacked by insiders without leaving any auditable trace whatsoever, so most votes are completely unverifiable. Uncounted, unverifiable votes cannot bring about change.
Votes are only valuable if they are actually counted. The Supreme Court said in Bush v. Gore 2000 that US votes need not be counted. Uncounted votes have no value whatsoever to the individuals who voted, but can could as consent of the governed as part of the turnout doing their civic duty to imperialism and capitalism. Voting in elections held by a government that engages in wars of aggression and drone-bombs innocent children every day, is consent of the governed to allow the government to continue those crimes against humanity. Most voters are too apathetic to care about genocide and war crimes, but I am not.
Robert Jensen, who I admired for years, wrote that unless the system is changed, the new boss will turn out to be just like the old boss. Jensen sold out in supporting Norman Solomon, because Solomon will have no more power than Kucinich, Grayson, Dellums, or any of other progressive Member of Congress. Bob Filner, a long-time Member of Congress and a former Freedom Rider, left Congress to run for Mayor of San Diego because he says he thinks he might have more power as a Mayor than as a Congressman. Solomon should talk to Filner about what he might be able to accomplish in Congress.
S. Brian Willson is Occupying DC and has a recent book about entitled, Blood on the Tracks, now in its second printing. When he was here in San Diego at his book tour, I asked him what he thought about an election boycott and he said that he agrees with me, that he doesn't vote, and that not voting is an important part of an overall strategy of noncompliance such as building alternative systems, boycotting corporations, removing money from the system, etc.
Willson lost both his legs trying to block a weapons shipment to the Contras. He is a world-renowned peace advocate. I'd much rather have his agreement than yours, Ernest, or that of Brad or anyone else who has shown a willingness to tolerate genocide and vote for people who are guilty of crimes against humanity.
Democracy has been scornfully referred to as two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. It can work, but only if the lamb has a solid and unbreakable block, not just once, but every single time that vote comes up, until the wolves, rather than starve, agree to an alternate entree.
I doubt if you or anyone else here will read the links I provided, but I did answer your questions.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 1:49 pm PT...
I forgot to mention that S. Brian Willson not only used to be a voter, he was a campaign manager for John Kerry, flying all over the country to counter the swiftboat attacks. He did not arrive at his position of not voting through apathy but through revulsion at being sold out by every candidate he'd ever supported. Kucinich talks about peace, but in '08 he threw his support to pro-war Obama. Willson isn't just talk, he is someone who has and continues to put his life on the line to end war crimes. You can't end war crimes by voting for war criminals or by voting in a system where war criminals have an unbreakable majority.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/7/2011 @ 2:05 pm PT...
Mark E. Smith -
I have no idea who Willson is, or what the hell he has to do with this story, but I'm glad to see Ernie speak to your years of "don't vote!" nonsense.
While I'm a strong believer that folks have every right to not vote, and its up to them whether they do or don't, your years of advocating against voting --- when the majority of the population already doesn't vote! (and how's that been working out for you?) --- continues to be as dumb today as the first day you ever wasted our time with it here.
I wasn't aware that by voting for or against a ballot initiative I was "voting for war criminals". Neither was I aware that by voting for, say, Ron Paul or the Green Party candidate for my local Mayor, that I was "voting for war criminals".
I also hadn't realize that this is a "system where war criminals have an unbreakable majority". If it's unbreakable, then why bother to do anything? It can't be broken either by voting or by not voting, according to your silly argument, so why waste your breath at all here?
Your years of advocating for idiocy continues, I guess. Good luck with that. Looks like you're winning though! Since almost nobody votes anyway. Keep up the great work! You folks against voting have given us a terrific set of public officials!
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 2:13 pm PT...
Try googling S. Brian Willson, Brad. And why is my first comment still being held for moderation? Is there anything in it that violates any rules you may have previously posted or be considering posting in the future, like Rob Kall's rule on OpEdNews that anyone who mentions election boycotts will be banned?
I posted my responses on my own website and Tweeted a link to them, just in case you or Ernest decides not to allow my first comment to be posted here.
Many people believe that they aren't voting for war criminals or war crimes when they vote for local officials, for third party candidates, or for specific civil rights such as marriage equality, but the system that they are granting their consent of the governed to by voting, is still engaged in war crimes, so that's what they're consenting to whether they are capable of understanding it or not, and whether or not they care. Most voters are too apathetic too care. If they can get a Green Mayor elected, why worry if another million innocent children are done-bombed in their sleep in some far-away country?
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 2:24 pm PT...
Brad, in my first comment, I explained who S. Brian Willson is.
That comment is still being "held for moderation," meaning censored.
Unlike your comment and Ernest's article, my response contained no personal attacks whatsoever, no childish name-calling, no attempts to discredit anyone, and no unfounded statements.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 2:45 pm PT...
As my response to Ernest is still being "held for moderation," anyone who wants to read it can see it here:
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1240
I do wonder why my second comment, which makes no sense without the first one, was allowed, but the first one is still being censored.
But then since Ernest's purpose was to discredit me and my ideas, he certainly wouldn't want me to be able to respond.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/7/2011 @ 2:56 pm PT...
Mark E. Smith,
Really? You think a community that would have the wherewithal to elect a Green Mayor would not be worrying about innocent children being drone-bombed?
Ernie and Brad,
I've been one of the people here who've wondered if not voting might be the best strategy after all. My reasons are perhaps a bit different than those discussed above but never mind all that cuz my thinking is evolving again on this..
First of all just the phrase--Occupy Elections--tickles me and gives me hope. If the amazing and seemingly magical power of the combined will of so many of us in the OWS can start working it's magic on the multiple undemocratic dysfunctions of our election processes then I would feel much more like playing.
But more than that I'm with Ernie on this cuz I think the smartest play is to confront the beast in every facet of its hydra-headed existence at every possible turn in every possible venue. Relentlessly, peacefully, creatively working on new dynamics of the revolution so desperately needed.
So why concede the electoral process? Yes, there are only a handful of true progressives currently walking the hallowed halls and yes, the game is terribly rigged against us. But getting Elizabeth Warren and/or Norman Solomon in there can only be good for creating the new direction so many of us hunger for. And just because the game is currently a clusterfuck doesn't mean we can't in time, with tremendous effort and perseverance unclusterfuck it.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 3:37 pm PT...
So, David, as long as you can get Elizabeth Warren or Normal Solomon in there in hopes of, with great time, effort, and perservence, creating a new direction, you are willing to do your civic duty to the state and, by voting, grant your personal consent of the governed for it to continue drone-bombing innocent children for the duration?
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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ghostof911
said on 12/7/2011 @ 4:00 pm PT...
The goal of the Occupy revolution is not to persuade political elites who've sold out to the corporate security state to make "concessions" but to replace each and every corporatist with leaders whose only fealty is to the 99%.
Agree that the call to extract concenssions from Democratic party sell-outs is insulting. Because Occupy members display a high level of political activism, the movement becomes a choice voting block for politicians. Occupy will spur politicians to come to them, as in the manner of denouncing PAC contributions. Occupy will reciprocate with support at the polls. In that way, the movement can systematically replace the politicians who are not representing the people who elect them to office.
Democracy is a living thing. Either you participate or you spectate. Either you use it or you lose it.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 4:25 pm PT...
It isn't just war crimes abroad that voters are consenting to, there are a few things going on here also:
http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/
But since it isn't urgent, with great time, effort, and perseverence, voters might be able to elect one or two people who might, in time, be able to start to create a new direction.
In the meantime, you just keep voting for capitalism, imperialism, corporate rule, and corruption, because you believe that the only way to change it is to be a part of it and participate in it. You certainly wouldn't want to risk losing any of it.
By the way, just what it is that you don't want to lose? I'd really like to know. It can't be democracy because we don't have one. Our elected officials make it explicitly clear that they do not and will not allow public opinion to influence their policy decisions, as would be the case in any democratic form of government where citizens have a voice instead of just a vote. So what is it you don't want to lose?
I will not.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Mark S. Tucker
said on 12/7/2011 @ 4:29 pm PT...
Hello again, Ern. Always enjoy your articles. The real problem here, though, as I have been at pains to point out in Veritas Vampirus through hundreds of issues, lies in linguistic ignorance…in this case in the incognition that 'democracy' and 'anarchy' are synonyms. They are, and not acknowledging that brings us our grief. I can't tell you how many self-proclaimed "anarchists" I've run across who, recessing their flavoring when operating in the public sphere, nonetheless shill for this republicanism we call, to put it in Hartmann's idiotology, 'small d democracy'. ANY form of representational government is republicanism, pure and simple (ironically, note my small 'r', as opposed to the Republicanism of the Republican Party, which is of course fascism). We live in a representational government and always have...save, of course,that it's now a fascism, which is the logical end point of republicanism but especially of Republicanism. Democracy means exactly what the term denotes: people rule, ALL people (there are no rhetorical or definitional limiters to the term). That's anarchy in its essence (and, as you know, I quibble with anarchists over their own splinters and thus label myself a 'meta-anarchist', a political philosophy populated by precisely 1). Until people come to use democracy in its proper meaning, it will remain an evanescent concept over which all and sundry bray and keen, to little if any avail, nothing more than sound, fury, and blather. Thus, 'small d democracy', 'representative democracy', 'indirect democracy' and all this baboon adjectivilization by Hartmann, Malloy, Rhodes & Co., Inc. LLC of the term only serve to illustrate the speakers' pertinent illiteracies and glaring philosophical shortcomings.
More, it's a trifle amusing to see such adamancy to vote in a forum whose main drive has been exposure of the election frauds that have been so rampant for well over a decade, a colloquy that can only lead to a conclusion I've drawn that Brad's not terribly fond of: that all elections everywhere from top down and bottom up must be considered fraudulent when done electronically until proven otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent? Yew betchum, stellarly in a case like this. Worse, when we look at the Democrats and their record (anyone at all remember Richard Daley???), we see no end of paper vote enfraudations. In fact, our entire American history has been fraught with the problem. So…people who encourage to not vote are loons? To the contrary, we're just not Democrat-ick or Progressive Democrat-ick dupes nor bereft of a bent to logical extrapolation. We have no patrons we must answer to. We're the true democrat/anarchists. *That* is the problem here.
And re: OWS, I love it, I'm in solidarity, but only for what it is, which is extremely limited. When it decides that at-home and global revolution are inevitable, then I'll pay much closer attention. Until then, it's still a very good thing, however…just exceedingly limited. Far as I'm concerned, any and all political agitation is self-justified, no matter its purview.
Oh, and if I may, I'd like to point out that your phrase 'egalitarian democracy' is a redundancy.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/7/2011 @ 4:46 pm PT...
Several points, Mark Smith:
1. Your first comment did not end up in moderation because of a violation of the blog's rules, but automatically because of its length. I've had that happen to some of my own comments.
2. Brad was tied up with his KPFK appearance, and I didn't see your book length dissertation until now. It's now posted as comment #1.
3. With all due respect, there's a gaping hole in your logic --- always has been. One does not "consent" to war by voting for an anti-war candidate, like a Kucinich, or a Solomon, or a Bernie Sanders.
Your half-baked, boycott elections idea amounts not only to a surrender of the political realm to the corporate security state, but free reign for the warmongers who are then unchecked by the vote. Your boycott is the political equivalent to a Senator abstaining rather than voting against continued funding of the war in Afghanistan.
So, Mark E. Smith, when you propose boycotting elections, it is you who consents by your absence to war.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/7/2011 @ 5:05 pm PT...
One of the problems I've always had with your linguistic purity arguments, Mark S. Tucker, is that you tend to make up your own definitions, and then lampoon anyone who does not use them precisely as you do.
Let's take the word "democracy."
Mark S. Tucker definition:
Democracy means exactly what the term denotes: people rule, ALL people (there are no rhetorical or definitional limiters to the term)
Merriam-Webster definition
a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.
Reference.com definition:
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Your entitled to your opinion, Mark Tucker. You're not entitled to your own definitions.
Finally, the words "egalitarian democracy" are not redundant. They are used to stress that even a political system that is structured for "rule by the people" can be undercut by capitalist inequality.
Indeed, Chomsky is critical of the current structure of U.S. "representative democracy [because it] is limited to the political sphere and in no serious way encroaches on the economic sphere."
It is my humble opinion that meaningful political democracy is not possible absent economic democracy --- hence the term "egalitarian democracy."
How's that for precision, Mark?
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Mark S. Tucker
said on 12/7/2011 @ 7:00 pm PT...
Not bad, Ernie, but not good either. You of course missed the scientific approach; that is, you looked to a perverted dictionary definition rather than an etymological base, a first-cause discovery, which should, I would imagine, be de rigeur for a lawyer. At least, that was the case when I was studying Law and solving cases for my teacher. And, by the way, I am entitled to the *facts*, and that's what I purvey, so let's take this by the numbers.
The conjoining of the words 'demos' (people) and 'cratein' (rule) (later 'kratos' and affixially '-cracy') mean precisely what they say: people rule, nothing more, nothing less. Fact, not opinion. And when they were first put together in old Greece, the civilization knew exactly what was meant, equally knowing they were not practicing democracy, not even vaguely. Read the classics and you'll see it. It was then, as it was later under the monstrous Jefferson & Co., a demagoguing excuse to water down tyranny a trifle, including formerly excluded very narrow slices of certain classes into the elite…to better serve the elite.
As we both well know, Ern, revisionism is a big problem in *everything*. Take the Santa Clara decision in your profession or travel over to history teachers and look at the crap they have to peddle in order to indoctrinate students into the historo-capitalist fairy-tale we call "democracy". Then peruse Simon Winchester's The Meaning of Everything and see how much perversion went into the making of the Oxford Dictionary. Same happened to Webster's. Dictionary-making is not a linguistic exercise, it is political, first and last, and words like 'democracy' are precisely the target. Dictate meaning and you dictate reality…or didn't you catch that in your Chomsky readings? Noam is by no means shy about such things when you read him widely and fully, esp. re: Big Eddie vBernays.
It's very simple: a word means what it means or it doesn't. Taking a Benthamite Utilitarian position, btw, should anyone be minded to, won't change a thing. Expanding words to mean other things is not expansion, it is perversion. Want a different meaning? Coin a different word. Our language is so chock full of such miserable impreciseness that it causes the intelligent to weep and gnash teeth. No wonder people can understand nothing but TV gabble. To echo Confucius, I wish my people understood their language.
How's *that* for precision, Ernie?
And if you run into Mr. Merriam-Webster or Ms. Reference.com, you can tell them that I can recommend a good therapist for their delusions. You, of course, are free to heed whomever pleases you in any case.
If you don't mind, I'll address your fallacious equivalencies of capitalism and democracy tomorrow, as the two are not even addressable in similar context. Lastly, re: my typification of Jefferson, I'll soon be proving, in my newsletter, that he was a monster along the lines of Columbus. This, naturally, as a matter of keeping facts straight, not as the kind of revisionist *opinion*-making transvestituring itself as fact we hear from radio infauxtainers and others.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/7/2011 @ 8:43 pm PT...
OMG, Mark Tucker. Bad enough I've had to debate right wing strict constructionists and their perverted views on the "original intent" of the framers of the U.S. Constitution.
Now I get someone on the Left who thinks he's a linguistic originalist, whose narrow interpretation of language leads to such a myopic conception as to ignore common usage of language necessary for modern communications.
Good luck with that, Mark. I'm sure you'll find at least fifteen, maybe 20 people in the 21st Century who'll buy into it.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/7/2011 @ 9:18 pm PT...
Mark S Tucker @11,
Where'd you get the word "enfraudations"? Can't find it in my dictionary. The only place I've been able to find it online is in a piece you wrote.
Is it from ENF--meaning the Elks National Foundation--, Rauda--referring to a municipality in Saale-Holzand district of Thuringia, Germany, and the common suffix "tion"?
I found that incomprehensible deconstruction in Hydrangea's Guide To Written Masturbation. But there was no explanation. Just a smirking, self-satisfied smiley face.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 9:35 pm PT...
Ernest, both dictionary definitions you cited agree that democracy is a system of government where supreme power is vested in the people.
That is obviously not the case in the US. We do not have the power to ensure that our votes are counted. If we had supreme power over government we could force it to count our votes.
We do not have the power to unseat Members of Congress if we aren't able to prove that their elections were stolen until after they've been sworn into office. Once they're sworn in, we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the election was rigged and stolen, but only Congress can unseat them and Congress never has. In 2006 there were six stolen elections appealed to Congress that they didn't even bother to investigate, the most famous one being that of Clint Curtis, which was fully documented here on BradBlog.
We do not have the power to appeal a Supreme Court decision, no matter how unprecedented, unconstitutional, irrational, or even absurd such a decision may be. The Framers weren't misspeaking, using a poor choice of words, or joking around when they named the highest law of the land the "Supreme Court." They were vesting supreme power in government, in an unelected body of government which they established, not in the people, who can neither vote for, nor remove a Supreme Court justice from office, nor appeal a Supreme Court decision. The Framers knew exactly what the word "supreme" meant, and they vested supreme power in government, not in the people.
So our government doesn't even meet the dictionary definition of a democratic form of government, no less Mark Tucker's definition, which I happen to agree with.
Thanks to whoever or whatever finally allowed my comment (Comment #1) to be posted.
I also agree with Mark Tucker that it is a travesty for those who devote themselves to exposing the many problems with our electoral system, to encourage people to vote in it anyway.
We don't need to vote in order to gather more evidence of election fraud, as we have tons of evidence of election fraud, along with tons of evidence that there is nothing within our power to do about it. If we had supreme power over government, we'd be able to at least have honest elections.
Saying, as Brad has, that we have "faith-based elections" where we vote and then wait for the "elections fairy" to come down and announce the unverifiable results, and then encourage people to vote in such elections is, in my opinion, as corrupt as encouraging people to gamble money in a rigged card game. If you know the game is rigged, the honest thing to do is to warn people not to play.
If this was a democracy and if our votes had to be counted and were verifiable, I'd be proud to vote, as I did for many years. Once I became an election integrity activist and learned that our electoral system is rigged and corrupt, I tried to find out why. I found out that it isn't just a question of how people vote or how the votes are, or are not tallied, but a problem with the Constitution itself, which vested supreme power in government rather than in the hands of the people, and thus established a plutocracy rather than a democracy. That's when I stopped voting.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/7/2011 @ 10:03 pm PT...
Mark E Smith @10,
You say--"In the meantime, you just keep voting for capitalism, imperialism, corporate rule, and corruption, because you believe that the only way to change it is to be a part of it and participate in it. You certainly wouldn't want to risk losing any of it."--
Those are weird things to write. You're assigning acts, meaning, and motivation to me completely out of your own ethers.
Then it gets weirder. After ending that paragraph with--"You certainly wouldn't want to risk losing any of it."--you start the next paragraph asking--"By the way, just what it is that you don't want to lose?"
To sum up--You make up my reality for me. You make up my motivation for me. After doing me those favors you assert, a bit snarkily, that I wouldn't want to lose these things(that you made up). THEN you ask with great interest(and a little typo) exactly what it is I'm afraid to lose?
How the hell would I know? You're having that conversation with yourself.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/7/2011 @ 10:12 pm PT...
Mark E. Smith @17 wrote:
Thanks to whoever or whatever finally allowed my comment (Comment #1) to be posted
Thanks for confirming that you didn't bother to read my comment @12.
And when did this place get hijacked by the Mark men?
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/7/2011 @ 10:57 pm PT...
Oy. Been gone all day, and got no time now to wade into the dialectical sand traps and self-delusional lame-brainisms of this thread tonight. As much as I might like to.
Maybe tomorrow. If I have time to catch up with the running train.
Good thing there aren't issues of real importance that all this fine Marksmanship couldn't have been targeted towards instead.
Sigh...
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 11:32 pm PT...
Ernest, I did read your comment #12, but let me respond to it more fully:
Several points, Mark Smith:
1. Your first comment did not end up in moderation because of a violation of the blog's rules, but automatically because of its length. I've had that happen to some of my own comments.
That explains why my comment was held for moderation, but it does not explain who or what finally allowed my comment to be posted.
2. Brad was tied up with his KPFK appearance, and I didn't see your book length dissertation until now. It's now posted as comment #1.
That was obvious and needs no response.
3. With all due respect, there's a gaping hole in your logic --- always has been. One does not "consent" to war by voting for an anti-war candidate, like a Kucinich, or a Solomon, or a Bernie Sanders.
Well, let's see, Ernie. Suppose somebody is known to be a multiple-bigamist who marries many women at the same time and takes their money. Would you say that a woman who knows that he does this, knows that he takes the money of the women he marries, but still consents to marry him anyway, isn't, by marrying him, consenting to allow him to take her money? It would be different if she didn't know.
If you know that the government is waging wars of aggression, committing crimes against humanity, and drone-bombing innocent children in their sleep, and you vote for somebody like a Kucinich or a Sanders who has been part of that government and hasn't been able to stop it from committing war crimes, or a Solomon who isn't any better than they are and would have less seniority, wouldn't you, by voting for them, be consenting to the war crimes you know the government is committing that you know they haven't been able to stop and certainly won't be able to stop, at least not for a long, long time?
Your half-baked, boycott elections idea amounts not only to a surrender of the political realm to the corporate security state, but free reign for the warmongers who are then unchecked by the vote.
In what way have warmongers ever been checked by the vote? Maybe after a few decades of war when they've already killed millions of innocents, they might shift their base of operations to a different theater where they can kill millions of different innocents, but the US has been engaged in genocidal wars since its inception, when it slaughtered the Native Americans, and has rarely been at peace since. It is almost always engaged in some war somewhere, usually to protect Rockefeller business interests like Standard Oil, United Fruit, and their latest incarnations.
Your boycott is the political equivalent to a Senator abstaining rather than voting against continued funding of the war in Afghanistan.
Yes, you're right. Some Senators do act out of conscience vote against war. Others, seeing that they lack a majority and would be subject to vicious attacks for voting against war, simply abstain. I consider both actions commendable and I respect them, but you seem to consider abstaining irrelevant and "doing nothing." I think they set a shining example and a refusal to vote for war should be honored, as should any Senator's vote against war. When the majority is voting for war, both a vote against war and a refusal to vote at all, are acts that do not support war.
It is different with Senators, though. They actually have an opportunity to vote for or against war, while we the people do not. Our Constitution did not vest supreme power in our hands and we are only allowed to vote (in rigged elections where our votes don't have to be counted) for representatives who will be able to vote for or against war. We have no direct vote on issues like war and we have no power to force our representatives to represent us. We know that the majority in Congress are pro-war, so even if we vote for a minority candidate opposed to war, we know that the end result will be continued war. If you know that your vote doesn't have to be taken into account (or even counted) and that no matter how you vote, the current system will continue to wage wars of aggression, no matter how you vote you are consenting to war. It's like consenting to marry the guy you know is already married to eight other women and will just take your money.
So, Mark E. Smith, when you propose boycotting elections, it is you who consents by your absence to war.
That's faulty logic, Ernie. The Senator who votes against war or who abstains from a vote where the only possible result will be more war, is not consenting to war the way that the Senator who votes in favor of war is. Since Senators don't have to represent their constituents, the fact that most voters are opposed to war has no impact on Senate war votes. While abstention is not a vote against war, it is not consent to war either. In fact it lowers the vote count, so that instead of, say, 98 Senators for war and 2 against war, there are only 97 Senators for war, 2 against war, and one abstention. Such a vote would mean that there were three Senators who were not willing to affirmatively consent to war.
Since we can't vote on issues like war, voting to consent to a Senate with that known pro-war makeup is also affirmative consent to war, even if it adds a theoretical 3rd or 4th Senator who will not consent to war. There's an unbreakable pro-war majority in the Senate, we know it exists, we can consent to it or not, and we might even hope to diminish that unbreakable majority by a vote or two, but we have no vote on war. Knowing that no matter who we vote for or who is elected, the result will be more war, the only possible way to oppose war is not to vote.
If you know that no matter how you vote, the result will be continued war, how can you consider your vote for a peace candidate to be a vote against war? It is a vote to consent to allow a pro-war Congress to continue to wage war in your name while you attempt, over time, with great effort and perseverence, to used rigged elections to elect more anti-war candidates. In the meantime, you're consenting to continuing war.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 11:42 pm PT...
I did read your comment #12, Ernie, but my attempt just now to respond to it more fully resulted in another lengthy post which is being held for moderation.
It might appear here by tomorrow. In the meantime, it can be viewed (scroll down to the bottom) here:
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1240#comment-3247
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/7/2011 @ 11:53 pm PT...
Brad (#20), if this wasn't an issue of real importance, why would your lede article be addressing it?
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 12:09 am PT...
Ernest, in addition to giving teach-ins at Occupy San Diego, which I did of my own initiative, I was also invited to host a discussion on the topic of election boycotts at Occupy Cafe:
When the Governed Don't Consent
http://www.occupycafe.or...e-governed-don-t-consent
I'm also taking part in a discussion on the same forum about the 2012 elections:
http://www.occupycafe.or...y-and-the-2012-elections
As for "Occupy Everywhere," I don't necessarily think that's a great idea. There are some places I don't think should be occupied. For example, I posted a sarcastic comment on my little website that essentially said:
Why don't we Occupy the prisons?
We could start by getting as many people as possible into local jails, and then aim for supermax prisons, and eventually Occupy Guantanamo and the CIA's secret prisons.
If we could get millions and millions of people inside the prison system, we could work from within to change it.
That was intended as caustic sarcasm to show that not everywhere can be productively Occupied. We already have millions of people in the prison system, and adding millions more is not likely to accomplish anything to reform the prison system.
Nor is adding more voters to the rolls likely to reform our electoral system.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
...
Mark S. Tucker
said on 12/8/2011 @ 12:09 am PT...
Well, Ernie, it's more than disappointing to read a retort conflated entirely of smarmy ad hominems, from a lawyer no less (well, okay, maybe not all that disconcerting then), something that wouldn't surprise me for a moment in the babble of an onanistic troll jackball chowderhead like Lasagna, whose excretions I've unfortunately had to wade through in previously perused exchanges here, but you? Sad. You addressed not a single point I made, facts that Chomsky, whose name you persistently bandy about with what at first appears to be familiarity, would very much agree with, himself a linguist and having entertained precisely my points many times, vastly your superior (and mine). You demean the concepts without a shred of analytically sound refutation.
Let me add another name to the mix: Gore Vidal. Read his work and listen to his talks, and you'll find precisely my point well captured in his examinations of the conflicts between word, concept, and manifestation, not to mention the deviation you think improper democracy. You might want to check out S.I. Hayakawa as well on such matters. Then John Raulston Saul. Etc. Just 20 people? I'm afraid you live in a myopic void. True, there are not many of us, but thousands upon thousands upon thousands exist who know such "esoteric" subjects well. Were you at all familiar with the true Left, you'd know that without my telling you. Behind the scenes you make claims to an anarchistic spirit, but, really, you haven't a clue, I'm afraid, and I'm sorry to have to note that, I really am.
That your and Brad's squalling groupie would chime in with inane fleering means little, the intellectual midget in question an ignorable flimp at best, but your own dismissive attitude does you no credit. Be a smart-ass if you wish, I encourage such things, I'm one as well, as thousands of my readers and you (and Brad) will attest, you know that from my own past work, present forum, and elsewhere, but I do so only in context or forwarding the argument's points in whatever direction, addressing the matter at hand, not running from it. This is why I bothered at all to pen missives your way in the first place. This Jekyll/Hyde gig is regrettable in you. You don't even know how to render a good fight any more.
I'm curious, though: what do you mean by "this place" being "hijacked" by "Mark men". This is only the second dialogue thread I've ever participated in on Brad Blog, mainly because of dimwits like Lasagna who infest the Net like cockroaches. BB is in fact one of the handful of sites I've considered worth attending in the last five years, as you and Brad very much know. To see it descend to a skein of dodgeball flippancy like so many others is a trifle tragic. You purport to see my two comments in a forum of 20 inserts as part of a hijacking? I think your rhetoric is revealing far too much about you, Ernie. True, Mark Smith goes on at length, but, unlike Lasagna, his points are cogent, well stated. I find his position exceedingly tenable, much more than yours and Brad's…and at least Brad cedes that not voting is a right as well, with, of course, a million and one odd qualifications. Smith's expositions in fact fall into the category Chomsky referred to when he cited Republicans accusing their opponents of having no solutions when the translation runs that very good solutions are indeed put forth but the Repubs just don't like them. An ocean of difference exists there.
If you'd care to resume the debate on its points, great, but if you'd prefer to remain in situ with this bizarre new avoidance syndrome, well…..
Oh, and Brad, if you're referring to me with these inchoate "self-delusional" and "lamebrainisms" charges, well, bring it on, buddy, let's see whatcha got. Mean it. Or would you prefer to hide in the woods like Ernie?
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
...
Adam
said on 12/8/2011 @ 1:31 am PT...
Ernest Canning's Wrote In Article...
The BRAD BLOG, unlike the corporate MSM, covered the recent
BradBlog.com is a model of how democracy and fairness should be practices in news media.
BradBlog.com doesn't engage in autocratic practices that many so-called alternative/progressive news sources engage in. For example, BradBlog wouldn't delete comments by someone who brings up election integrity issues as DailyKos has a history of doing. Unlike RawStory which unjustly banned a reader called adam8 (that is, me), BradBlog wouldn't ban someone from commenting on the basis of a crime he didn't commit or for questioning the honesty of someone who would slander him by email to several individuals, on the basis of fictional connections made by faulty software (disqus, purportedly). Thank you BradBlog for not hypocritically engaging in blatantly unfair and autocratic practices.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 1:55 am PT...
Re: Mark S. Tucker @24:
Relax, draw in a deep breath and start over.
The Mark men comment was intended as levity. Sorry you did not see it that way.
And there was no need for you to launch a personal attack on David Lasagna. Your doing so violates one of the few rules Brad has for posting on the comment section. Please refrain from doing so in the future.
Now, getting back to your earlier comment. Since you apparently attended law school, you do know that one of the basic means for interpreting words used in a statute in order to ascertain legislative intent is their common and ordinary usage.
Insisting on narrow meaning based on original derivations of the roots of a word --- 'demos' (people) and 'cratein' (rule) (later 'kratos' and affixially '-cracy') --- in my mind, is a form of linguistic masturbation.
The Webster's and Reference.com definitions which you so cavalierly dismiss are, in fact, the commonly understood meaning of the word "democracy." If it is really inappropriate to affix the common and widely used meaning of the word "democracy," as you claim, then why was it appropriate to affix "cracy" and to drop the "s" instead of "demoscratein."
Ah, there we go, Mark. We can settle it. You are an advocate of "demoscratein" (original meaning) whereas I advocate "democracy" (commonly understood usage).
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 2:05 am PT...
Admittedly, I haven't read the latest from Ernie carefully enough to comment proper - I've been way too busy trying to get my last 8 occupiers out of jail...
...which is why I'm talking umbrage with yet another article condemning and criticizing our process from someone, who WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, hasn't been to one single General Assembly meeting - and has only utilized the information from me re: our process to back up what I'm realizing now is a pre-determined, academic, "from 30,000 ft" armchair narrative.
I'm so so so sick of being asked, but not not listened to, on this concensus topic from SO many of my progressive, intelligent, critical thinking heroes and colleagues who have not participated on the ground, refuse to follow our own broadcasts, and continue pad their part in this constant "spanking" and "chastising" of the movement from the very people who claim to support us.
I will have more to say on this once I get some rest, and have had more time to fully absorb the latest slap on the wrist (to heroes from heroes) on our concensus process that everyone seems to have a very strong opinion about, regardless of what has been achieved in just two months time by the very process they malign.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 2:21 am PT...
Re Mark E. Smith @21 sees a Senator's abstention to a war resolution "commendable."
I, on the other hand, can't help but think of Edmund Burke.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 2:34 am PT...
Okay...took a breath. Realizing that Ernest has actually "softened" the OWS criticism here, until the last paragraph. I realize this piece is more of a condemnation of Mark E. Smith (which I am all for) and his never-ending asinine assertion that somehow NOT VOTING is "OCCUPYING" anything; that boycotting the vote will somehow have impact on the 1% who want us to stay home and not vote - so how does HELPING them DEFEAT us help the 99%? ...Mark never has an answer to that.
Ernest - I don't necessarily disagree that direct democracy is a sticky wicket - and I realize it has not proven HISTORICALLY effective. Okay. We can agree on that to some extent. But once again, I feel you're missing some critical info re: how the process changes from within, how organic (yet slow) and effective it can be. Consensus takes practice and patience, but we're getting REALLY good at it.
There are several efforts afoot to begin to coral our political chops now and find a way to form a NEW representative democracy. Much of that is a work in progress as we discuss occupy phase 2...
...and for me? That will be OCCUPYING ELECTIONS (by actually OCCUPYING THEM, unlike Mark's assertion that we should Occupy the COUCH on election day to some unknown and inexplicable end.)
Also, it's worth noting that the TEA PARTY and OWS are finding common ground in jointly opposing this horrible National Defense Authorization Act. So there is LOTS more common ground right now, with the country in such a state of perma-disaster...
We may never agree on everything.
But it's really refreshing to live in a sub-culture in which EVERYONE has a voice...
Even the Mark E. Smiths.
His bad idea will vet itself thru the process.
"Boycotting Elections" would be hard-blocked at our GA...by me, and by a LOT of my fellow occupiers.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 3:40 am PT...
Sure, Jeannie. Certainly the millions of dollars that the Republicans and the big corporations spend on voter suppression does make it look like they don't want people to vote, or perhaps that they want people to think that their uncounted, unverifiable vote for their choice of corporate puppets or powerless minorities is somehow valuable, but that's nothing compared to the billions of dollars they spend funding elections and getting out the vote.
I didn't say that not voting is Occupying anything, I just said that some things aren't really productive to Occupy, such as prisons and elections. Yes, you can get some PR and sway some opinions out of it, but you aren't going to reform the prisons by getting more people into them, and you aren't going to reform the electoral process by voting.
My idea has already been discarded by Occupy San Diego. Although my teach-ins drew a fair-sized audience and received what seemed to me to be more praise than they deserved, they were in the end totally disregarded and Occupy San Diego was cmpletely co-opted, as I had predicted a month earlier when I overheard a group of high-level local Democratic Party political operatives at Occupy saying that they needed to "keep a low profile" and "take things one step at a time." Obviously, at least to me, they didn't want people to notice they were co-opting the group away from direct democracy and back into politics as usual.
They, and a group called Canvass for a Cause, which while ostensibly non-partisan in order to retain their tax-exempt status, never, to my knowledge has canvassed for a predominantly Republican cause and always hands out voter registration forms when they canvass, won out totally.
First Ray Lutz, who has headed Democratic Party clubs here and was a Democratic Congressional candidate (and, who like you, Ernest, Brad, and all political party operatives, hates my election boycott advocacy, although you alone, Jeannie, don't seem to have engaged in the ad hominem attacks required of political operatives), decided that since the cops had wrecked all the tables, including the information table, the media table, the medical table, the library table, the education table, the food table, the comfort table, etc., it was likely that the cops and the city saw OccupySD as opposing the system. So he set up a voter registration table, something he has always done as a Democratic operative, to have a good court case if they tried to take away a table he was using to support the system.
It worked. He was arrested for setting up the table (structure), but his followers, local Democrats, and C4aC began saying he'd been arrested for registering voters. He hadn't asked for consensus, but he had asked the GA to support his individual action and they'd agreed.
The next day C4aC went to GA and announced that they were setting up a new voter registration table. They simply announced it without seeking consensus. When I went down there with my "Boycott the war--Don't vote!" t-shirt and flyers, I was surrounded by Democratic Party operatives and a large group from Canvass for a Cause, and isolated.
Right now the only table that Occupy San Diego has is a voter registration table. Oh, they still have GAs, but I'm sure they'd consense on sticking with politics as usual and not attempting to create a direct democracy. If they didn't at first try, the Democrats could bring in a few hundred people to outnumber the dozen or so usually there, and push it through with their 90% majority rule.
I will still advocate for direct democracy, which is what the GAs are supposed to be, where everyone has a voice and can vote directly on issues, as opposed to representative "democracy" where people are deemed incompetent to vote on issues and can vote only on which guardians they would prefer to make their decisions for them.
So, Jeannie, do you intend to propose to your GA that they abandon the direct democracy consensus process and elect representatives to vote on issues for them? Better still, how about secret vote counts, or a proposal that once the GAs elect representatives, individual votes don't have to be counted at all, only votes cast by official Occupy officeholders?
Do you really support the GAs, Jeannie, or do you attend so that you can co-opt them away from direct democracy and back to representative "democracy," or politics as usual?
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 12/8/2011 @ 4:46 am PT...
The candidate selection process that takes place before a politician is selected to run for office is where the main problem lies.
The 1% select them for tactical or strategic reasons that further their agenda, not the agenda of the 99%.
How voting for those hand selected by the 1% help the 99% is not evident.
If money is taken out of it, which will now require a constitutional amendment in the wake of Citizens United v FEC, then a new context arises.
Until then voting is the Roman thing to do.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 5:10 am PT...
Okay, I'll pretend like you're really asking and really answer you, Mark:
I happen to LOVE the direct democracy process, Adore it. I've been defending it from the get - feverishly trying to educate my E.I. / activist / media friends about why and where this process works, 'cuz in article after article, they really don't seem to get it.
In fact, I'm so enamored of the process, I can't stop using the hand signals, even when carrying liquids.
And if you really knew Occupy, then you'd know that it can not be co-opted by any individual or group. It has a life of it's own, self-rejuvinative; glorious morphing in timely step and direction. We are galvanized.
So, no I have no intention of co-opting occupy (even if I COULD) on behalf of representative democracy...many others are floating those ideas, I'm just following their progress as they pick up more interest and support from various occupies. We are all discussing that in open forums as we become more localized, but more connected, after our forced evictions.
No, what I intend to do, Mark, is OCCUPY THE WISCONSIN RECALLS. I intend to propose @ occupyLA GA that they support the effort on behalf of our brothers and sisters in OCCUPY MADISON, who are already ramping up the recall rocket, mobilizing as we speak. Then, I intend to livestream for weeks from the ground via citizen election activists with cell phones, get the site mirrored with my new friends over at the global revolution feed, and expose any real-time election "anomalies" on election day to millions of international (and national) viewers / occupiers.
When "glitches" are identified (and we know where they will be) we intend to "flash mob" and "occupy" the districts of interest, call them en masse / then show up, sit down and link arms at the B.O.E. and not move until they count the paper ballots by HAND and with HUMAN EYES in front of us.
That is what I intend to do with a broken system, Mark...expose it, then FIX it. I intend to DO something.
Really wish you would join that kind of a fight, stop working against the 99% and FOR the 1%ers who want us to drop out completely so they can rule in perpetuity.
For someone who understands as much as you do about the nature of our rigged US election system, and who can articulate the issues with some authority - I would HOPE for *but never expect* your help in this imperative 2012 critical mass of an election-slog. If you were not so intractable and stubborn in your odd assertion that boycotting the vote somehow officially 'delegitimizes' an already "delegitimized", corrupt governing body - you could be a real force for good.
...but Brad has written that to you a gazillion times, to no effect. So I don't expect we'll see anything malleable in you that bends to reason at this late juncture in this tired-ass debate.
Catch ya later, Mark E! I'm sure I'll see u round! Caught your post at OCCUPYCAFE. A tired *Eye roll* was all it illicited from me.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 5:27 am PT...
...and ferchrissakes, Mark - I am not (nor is BRAD or ERNEST - a "political operative".) You really should drop that kind of hooey - makes you seem unhinged.
Nor am I a cop. Or a FREEPER. Or a dirty hippie. Or a MOVE ON plant, or a 'sleeper-cell', or anything other title that would be ascribed to me by pundits, press-pols, and even some(not-so-stable) fellow occupiers.
I am a voter.
I am an American.
I am a NYC 9/11 relief worker, a US election investigator, and a now - a proud LA occupier.
As such, I can not advocate your "do nothing" position re: our most sacred right to vote. It strikes me as the antithesis of everything we claim to value, as well as a most cynical and lethargic reaction to the hostile government takeover we have endured. Which should move all Americans - even you - to some kind of palpable action.
So strange to me that you spend SO much time and energy trying to get people to do the nothing they're already doing! We could bottle-rocket you to the moon and back on so much wasted hot-air steam...
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:07 am PT...
Dredd @ 32 writes:
"How voting for those hand selected by the 1% help the 99% is not evident."
True. That is why THIRD PARTY CANDIDATES, and fusion parties (perhaps a fusion 99% party in the states that allow it?) with actual candidates (or even virtual ones) on the ballot could make a meaningful difference - even give people like Mark a reason to vote! They could register a WRITE IN as protest/ or support a 99% affiliated candidate - then if the VOTES ARE COUNTED BY HUMANS in front of the public?
..we could change the game. Or at least make millions of American voters more aware that the election cycle chess pieces have been pre-set.
I would add, to further fuel this debate (even tho' I really don't wanna) that we know that high voter turnout can counter-hack a rigged election. Bev Harris and Harri Hursti proved that in HACKING DEMOCRACY; the math has to "seem" relatively plausible - and they can only shave so many votes without risking detection...well, that is, if people take the time to observe the vote count on election night.
...Which they can't do from home, where Mark would have them collectively sitting it out, instead.
Dredd also writes:
"If money is taken out of it, which will now require a constitutional amendment in the wake of Citizens United v FEC, then a new context arises."
Ah, good news Dredd! Well, maybe not good - but it's a start! You'll be happy to know that "reversing citizens united" via constitutional amendment was our very first occupyLA "demand" reached by 100% concensus!
http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/2658
“A group of protesters from labor unions and the Occupy L.A. movement joined forces to support a bank regulation bill put forward by Councilman Richard Alarcon. “
http://abclocal.go.com/k...rss-kabc-article-8455946
"The Los Angeles City Council voted 11-0 to pass a resolution calling for legislation to overturn the Citizens United Supreme Court decision (5-4) which assigns person-hood status to corporations and opened the door for a flood of corporate cash into the political system.
...so Ernest's closing comments:
"
Certainly, at the local level, that process, including the use of the people's mic with participants taking turns in making statements and repeating the statements of others, has benefited both group solidarity and mutual understanding..."
The process is quite beneficial if it means a full airing of views, but, respectfully, it is impractical when every decision must be approved by a super majority..."
Impractical? Yah mabye, but it's WORKING.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:28 am PT...
Mark S. Tucker @11 wrote:
it's a trifle amusing to see such adamancy to vote in a forum whose main drive has been exposure of the election frauds that have been so rampant for well over a decade...
Mark E. Smith @17 adds:
We do not have the power to ensure that our votes are counted.
Oversimplification!
More than 70% of the U.S. votes on optical scanners, which are vulnerable to both intentional hacks as well as unintended failures. Nevertheless, the votes are hand marked on paper ballots which are fed into the machines. Those paper ballots can be used to prove fraud, though, if they are not publicly counted at the precinct level on Election Night, you run into thorny issues concerning chain-of-custody.
Between 20% & 30% of the jurisdictions vote on 100% unverifiable, usually touch screen, DREs. There is no way to verify that those machines have accurately counted any vote cast on them. They are indeed electronic black holes, though fraud can potentially be detected if given complete access to the source codes.
While there are problems with absentee voting, Brad and I have recommended voting on paper absentee ballots in all DRE jurisdictions. Those paper ballots do provide a potential means for uncovering election fraud.
The classic example was the 2010 South Carolina Democratic primary contest between Alvin Greene and Vic Rawl.
Greene was unemployed, virtually unknown and barely articulate. He had no campaign website, no volunteers, no campaign literature. He didn’t even own a computer or a cell phone. His opponent, the respected circuit judge and former state legislator Vic Rawl had raised hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars, appeared at 80 campaign events across the state, and had hundreds of volunteers.
The numbers were inexplicable. By way of example, Lancaster County's paper absentee ballots went to Rawl 84% to 16%, but the unverifiable touch screens reported that Rawl had lost the county by 17%. Statewide, the virtually unknown Greene captured 60% of the vote, according to the unverifiable machines.
Those anomalies would not have appeared if those who cast the paper absentee ballots had, per Mark Smith's advice, boycotted the election. And just think how different the numbers would have been if everyone insisted on voting by absentee paper ballot.
Finally, there's the walk and chew gum at the same time issue. If you go back a re-read my article, you'll find that part of Occupying Elections is insistence on converting to paper-ballot elections and transparent counts.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:33 am PT...
I'm waiting to see a proposal for a Constitutional amendment that addresses the fact that the Constitution enumerates and specifically grants to the Supreme Court, the sole right to interpret the Constitution and to decide cases arising out of it. So when the Supreme Court decides that the alternate interpretations of the Constitution that allow for a Constitutional Convention outside of the Article V process, are invalid, because the sole right to interpret the Constitution lies with the Supreme Court and is not retained by the States or the people like unenumerated rights, will you go to violent revolution, Jeannie? But of course you don't have to worry about that for a long time, as Constitutional Amendments can take decades. Remember the ERA?
If I recall correctly, Wisconsin had a "Ballot Box 13" incident, where enough votes to reverse the election were "discovered" after the preliminary results were already in, and attempts to do anything about it failed.
As for exposing the corruption when an election was obviously rigged, that has been done many times. It cannot, however, removed a seated federal official from office. Only Congress can do that, and in the case of Presidents and seated Members of Congress, they never have. But you can dream.
2012 won't be stolen the way that 2000 and 2004 were. The 1% have gotten to sophisticated for that. It will be done the way 2008 was stolen, by running two candidates with identical agendas, so that whoever wins, the 1% win. To this end, all the political operatives need to do is get out the vote. Since there is no obvious "lesser evil" candidate, and no party has a proud record of accomplishments to point to, political operatives have been doing this by urging people to vote for third party and independent candidates (who would have no power to bring about change even if elected, due to the unbreakable Democratic/Republican majority), write in their own names, vote for "None of the Above" or vote for "Nobody," cast blank ballots, or deliberately spoil their ballots. The 1% don't spend billions on elections to gain power--they already have power. They invest that money so that their puppet government can claim the legitimacy of being a democratically elected government with the consent of the governed. So they don't care who people cast their uncounted ballots for, they just want sufficient turnout to be able to claim legitimacy.
You're just playing at GA until the "real election," Jeannie. You don't want direct democracy to replace the old system, so that we the people can vote directly on war, because most of us oppose war. You want power to remain vested in the hands of government, so that only elected officials, preferably your beloved genocidal Democrats, but you certainly wouldn't rebel if another Bush was elected, can continue to drone-bomb innocent children in your name.
And as Mark Tucker pointed out to Ernest earlier, I have answers to the things you say, and I've spelled them out--you're just saying I don't have answers because you don't like my answers and can't refute them.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:39 am PT...
I just noticed the BradBlog blurb for this article on the right hand sidebar:
Ernest Canning on the need for the Occupy Movement to move into the electoral realm, and how they can do so without violating their important core principles...
I guess direct democracy, people being able to vote directly on issues and policies like wars and bailouts, as opposed to representative "democracy" where only representatives can vote on issues and policies, isn't one of Occupy's important core principles.
That's really sad, because I thought it was. I know that as long as power remains vested in the government, elected officials will not have to represent their constituents and therefore most will not, so the only way we could end our government's crimes against humanity would be if we the people had a direct vote. And Ernest, Brad, and Jeannie think that's a bad idea.
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:44 am PT...
Adding: to frame this as a "representative democracy" vs. a "direct democracy" debate, imho, is limiting and misses the mark. Occupy is more about self-governance where both of those democratic methodologies have completely failed us.
Occupy is trying something new. And yes, it IS new - to all who insist we are only following the historical blueprints that have already been fatally drafted for us, and are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that are beyond our control...
I submit that this global movement is entirely new. And it's young. And it's not going anywhere.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:50 am PT...
I believe Jeannie Dean is onto something profound when she discusses both continuation of the consensus process in play at local GAs together with "representative democracy" as part of an occupation of electoral politics.
The answer to your concern, Dredd, is to have those who are selected to "represent" the 99% emerge from within the organic OWS movement. In that event, the fact that the "representative" chose to run as a Democrat (e.g., Norman Solomon) does not mean that they must adhere to anything the current Democratic leadership desires. In fact, the goal of OWS should include occupying the Democratic Party for the purpose of removing everyone in current leadership positions who has sold out to the corporate security state.
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:53 am PT...
"So when the Supreme Court decides that the alternate interpretations of the Constitution that allow for a Constitutional Convention outside of the Article V process, are invalid, because the sole right to interpret the Constitution lies with the Supreme Court and is not retained by the States or the people like unenumerated rights, will you go to violent revolution, Jeannie?"
No.
..my beloved Democrats? Are u effin' kiddin' me? K. You have now lost me, again, like you always do by ascribing ludicrous political assumptions that don't exist. I voted for Ron Paul in 2008.
I don't know why I bothered to waste my time with you, this morning.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 7:22 am PT...
Ernest @36 says, that when I say that we do not have the power to ensure that our votes are counted, I'm oversimplifying, and then goes into various details of how votes could be counted.
I wasn't oversimplifying, Ernest. I was referring to Bush v. Gore 2000 when the Supreme Court found that we have no Constitutional right to have our votes counted, stopped the vote count, nullified the election, and installed the President of their choice.
We have no Constitutional right to ensure that our votes are counted, and no power to appeal a Supreme Court decision to not allow the votes to be counted, as occurred in 2000.
The Supreme Court has supreme power, which was vested in it by the Constitution. It can intervene with or without a pretext, make rulings that are unprecedented and irrational, and despite the supposed checks and balances some ignorant people refer to, the truth is that, as Al Gore noted after the 2000 election, the only way to appeal a Supreme Court decision is through armed revolution.
If the Supreme Court decides in 2012 or any future election, to order that the votes not be counted, as it did in 2000, we have no power to ensure that our votes are counted.
In fact, in 2004 there was a huge turnout because voters were so furious about the stolen election of 2000, that when John Kerry promised to ensure every vote would be counted, people flocked to the polls in hordes. Including me. I sent that lying billionaire money I couldn't afford because I wanted my vote to be counted. And he, uh, changed his mind. And nobody had the power to ensure our votes were counted, so once again, they weren't counted.
I'm not oversimplifying. We do not have the power to ensure that our votes are counted. It doesn't matter if they're cast on paper or on machines, if the Supreme Court says they won't be counted, they won't be counted. Look up the dictionary definition of the word "supreme."
And maybe you can respond to my previous point, that your dictionary definitions of democracy all said that supreme power is vested in the hands of the people. This is not a democracy and never was. Supreme power was vested by the Constitution in the hands of the Supreme Court. That's why they didn't call it the High Court, the President's Court, or the Unelected Court, but the Supreme Court.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 7:37 am PT...
Jeannie, I don't care who you voted for. A vote for Ron Paul was a vote for Obama. In our winner-take-all system, a vote is the consent of the governed to be governed by whoever wins the the election, which may not be the candidate they voted for.
Doing one's civic duty to the system by voting in its elections is demonstrating enough faith in the system to trust that whoever wins the "election," that person will represent the voter's interests. This is an article of faith for which no evidence has ever been presented.
I guess I should have said "your beloved system," as it is the representative system of government, as opposed to direct democracy, that you love, wish to preserve, and think everyone should legitimize through their vote.
I don't care whether you're trying to co-opt the Occupy Movement for Obama, Ron Paul, or RuPaul, as long as you advocate people vote in elections for representatives, you're opposing direct democracy and expressing your preference for the current system.
The Occupy Movement is saturated with political operatives and they love the GAs. But they wouldn't want to see the whole country run that way. It's just a toy for them, a game, a silly frivolous, meaningless trip, which, no matter how much it may accomplish, can never take the place of "real" elections for "real" representatives in our corporate-run imperialist state.
As long as the government keeps drone-bombing innocent children, voters are happy. Oh, they might complain about the economy, civil rights at home, or other trivial issues, but as long as our government keeps committing crimes against humanity, they'll keep right on voting in its elections to grant it their consent of the governed.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 7:48 am PT...
Jeannie, direct democracy is self-governance.
Look at the first official statement of Occupy Wall Street, which includes the List of Grievances. At the bottom you'll see:
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
I didn't make it up. The Occupy Wall Street Movement, however co-opted and corrupted it may become, was founded on the principles and spirit of direct democracy.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 8:59 am PT...
As Mark E. Smith continues to rail against voting, three members of Occupy DC announced plans for a hunger strike over the right to vote.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 9:42 am PT...
We have two people in San Diego on hunger strike now, Ernest, a woman who began recently and a man, John Kenney, in his 30th day. John began his hunger strike to try to get the City Council to negotiate with Occupy San Diego and to put Occupy San Diego on their agenda.
After 30 days, John is so weak that he needs a wheelchair. He isn't young and this isn't his first hunger strike. It is serious, and it could cost him his life.
As for the City Council, a few members tend to be somewhat reasonable, but others are hard-core anti-Occupy.
Basically, it boils down to trying to force the powers that be to allow protests against their own power.
People who believe in the system, believe that there must be some way to get the system to represent, or at least allow their interests.
The system believes it exists to suppress civil dissent. It isn't just corporate money. Power also corrupts, so putting people in power is a risky venture no matter how well-intentioned they may be.
The idea of direct democracy is to decentralize power and vest power in the hands of the people, so that everyone has an equal voice, rather than some people having power to allow or deny the rights of others.
Along with the hunger strikes, lawsuits have also been filed in attempts to get the system to respect what people fondly believe to be their legal and Constitutional rights.
In reality, as Mumia Abu Jamal learned from Delbert Africa and recounts in his book, Jailhouse Lawyers, the law is whatever the judges say that it is. Therefore our rights are also whatever the judges and elected officials allow us. They have the power, we do not.
It is foolish to think that votes which do not have to be counted are valuable. It is also foolish to think that in a democratic system of government, people would have to sue, petition, lobby, or go on hunger strike to get their elected and appointed officials to respect their rights.
In a democratic system of government, supreme power is vested in the hands of the people, not in the hands of government.
A common criticism of not voting is the old canard, "If you don't vote, you can't complain." The Declaration of Independence, like Occupy's List of Grievances, is a long list of complaints. Complaining is one of those unalienable rights, even if it isn't enumerated. Even a plant, insect, or animal has the right to react when it is hurt--it is part of the essence of life.
If you are a captive and are not free, you can complain, petition, go on hunger strike, vote, or whatever you wish to do to try to get your captors, owners, rulers and/or tyrants to be more benevolent towards you. In a democracy you don't have to do that because in a democracy, supreme power is vested in the people, not in representatives, elected officials, appointed officials, owners, kings, tyrants, dictators, or anyone else.
If you have supreme power, you don't have to petition anyone for your rights or ask anyone to grant you your rights or at least stop denying you your rights. If you have supreme power, as would be the case in a democratic system of government (according to the dictionary definitions Ernest posted), you simply exercise your rights because there is no higher institutional power that can deny or take away your rights.
Another problem with voting or petitioning a government for your rights, is that what government giveth, government can taketh away. If your rights are conditional upon the government granting or allowing them tomorrow, the government can decide to deny or disallow those rights the following day.
I still believe that direct democracy, i.e., government of the people, by the people (not by kings, dictators, judges, or elected representatives, but by the people), and for the people is the best system I know of. But it has never existed in the USA. We've always had a plutocracy where power was vested in the hands of a wealthy few.
I had hoped that Occupy would begin, or at least attempt to change that, and in some cities there are still remnants of hope. In other cities, where Occupiers have rejected direct democracy, the movement is merely reformist, not revolutionary, and even if it were to succeed in gaining some temporary reforms, it would not change the system.
That is perfectly okay with those who prefer plutocracy, capitalism, corporate rule, and imperialism to democracy, but I happen to prefer democracy. And I've done my homework and know what the word means. It means supreme power vested in the hands of the people, not in the hands of government.
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 9:54 am PT...
Also, if you think that I'm against voting, please read the essay I wrote (and did post a link to in my first comment here) entitled, "The Value of Voting."
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1189
In it, I clearly explain that I am no more against voting than I am against breathing.
I am against voting in an undemocratic system of government, just as I am against breathing in a toxic environment that lacks oxygen.
In a democratic system of government, voting is the most precious right of all, just as in an environment suitable for human life, breathing is essential to survival. In an undemocratic system of government, voting can be fatal, just as breathing in a toxic environment without oxygen would be.
I am fully in favor or voting and am proud to vote in GAs, just as I would be proud to vote in any democratic system. I will not vote in an undemocratic system because that would be voting to consent to be governed undemocratically, and that I will not do.
What you choose to do is up to you.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 10:21 am PT...
Mark E. Smith @47 wrote:
I am against voting in an undemocratic system of government, just as I am against breathing in a toxic environment that lacks oxygen.
Great! So now you want us to "boycott breathing"!
Hmmm, Don't think it healthy for me to hold my breath waiting to see how that works out.
Yeah, I know, Mark. Our atmosphere may be polluted but it does still contain oxygen. But what you don't seem to grasp is that, while our electoral system is systemically skewed to wealth and power, like our polluted atmosphere, it still provides a means for achieving a peaceful democratic revolution using the tactics I've described in this article + those advocated by Jeannie Dean and others.
Sorry, Mark, but, as your experience at OccupySD seems to show, there are very few who are willing to drink the boycott elections Kool aid.
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
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eli
said on 12/8/2011 @ 10:26 am PT...
I personally don't support the arguments against voting, because I feel that I personally have a ethical obligation to prevent the greater evil from gaining power, to whatever extent I can. So if my abstention (or vote for a third party for that matter) contributes to allowing what I consider to be a greater evil to gain power, I would consider myself partially responsible. In politics, as in life, we don't always get to make choices from among ideal options, and must often choose a lesser evil. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be working to improve the available options, but I believe we still have a responsibility to act based on the reality of the current situation, and not to sit on our hands while allowing (a greater) evil to occur.
That said, I want to point out an argument in favor of abstention: Peter Singer (in his 1974 book Democracy and Disobedience) argues that if one voluntarily participates in a decision procedure, one thereby takes on an obligation to obey the outcome of this procedure. Only by abstaining, according to Singer, can one preserve the moral right of disobedience. There may be other considerations in favor of disobedience (such as if the decision procedure itself is fundamentally unjust), but voluntary participation is one factor that argues against a right of disobedience, according to Singer.
I'm really not sure how to reconcile these two points, but I wanted to bring up the Singer argument to show that arguments for abstention do also have a moral basis.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
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Sark
said on 12/8/2011 @ 11:49 am PT...
Hi All and Mark,
I am the individual that is in a discussion with Mark E. S. at the OccupyCafe. He actually linked to BradBlog so I decided to take a look. I know that there is no way I am saying anything any here have not said to Mark over what looks to be years of interactions. I also saw this mentioned in another place.
I am going to post some of my latest comments made to Mark at the OccupyCafe here because maybe some that have addressed this for years can help me with how I am stating things. I say this because I have seen advocating for not voting and writing in Mic Check as a "I do not consent" stand posted at Occupy sites.
So, here goes. It will be several post and may not make much sense because it is only mine but the entire thread is at the OccupyCafe. Peace
Mark,
I do not agree with your judgement about those that make the decision to vote. And I do not agree with your position that all the murder of innocent children and destruction of the environment will continue with or without the "consent to be governed". I do think that because of human nature, there will always be some of that happening but I think that honest true vote count elections would do much to move forward the causes of Peace, Social, Environmental and Economic justice.
If individuals need to make the decision to not vote, that is their right in this country. If citizens were required to vote, not voting might make more of a statement. I think that saying "I do not consent and therefore I will not vote" may give one some comfort in the position they have taken but I think it will do nothing to change the reality of the world we are living in today. I do know that massive voter turnout has been the only effective way to have any chance against rigged elections. I think those doing the election selecting hope, wish and dream about some voters not showing up at the polls.
Mark, you could go on and on and on about what "could" happen but the probability of what you say happening is so remote that it is difficult to give it any more time for discussion. Just because the court and justices have the label "supreme" it does not mean there is no recourse as I said earlier concerning impeachment. And, the Robert's court is doing a lot of overturning settled law from past "supreme courts" so I guess "supreme" changes over time. I understand the impeachment process and what has and has not happened but I think that it would be very different if the members of congress were elected rather than selected.
As for honest judges, because we have had years of judges being ""selected" for their positions, it is becoming more and more difficult to find ones that don't legislate from the bench for the maintaining of easily rigged elections. The people could change that if they required that their votes be counted on paper and hand counted.
And, all this said, I would rather spend my time on the realities of what is actually happening and has a high probability of happening. I have friends right now in WI working on the efforts to recall the governor there. They also worked on the WI supreme court recount and the recall of senators in the state. I support their efforts and am grateful for all they are doing. I am glad that they have become aware of all the many problems with elections and are leading the way in reform. Nine months ago they "Occupied" their capital and continue to have a daily presence there. And, while they are doing all of this, they are also working for Peace, Social, Economic and Environmental justice. I think they are heroines and heroes and I think they are doing a lot to make their state and this world a better place for all. I think they are making a very big difference by how they choose to say they do not consent.
You have every right to put out a call to not vote just as others put out the calls to write in candidates and others choose to vote. I hope that others will make the choice to address the problems with elections and will push forward for reform and will continue to vote in masses so we can maybe overcome the algorithms. I hope that the reality that Hand-Counted Paper Ballots are a necessity for a true vote count and honest elections will come out of all of this effort.
Now, off to Occupy.....................
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
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Sark
said on 12/8/2011 @ 11:52 am PT...
My latest post to Mark and a continuation from post 50 here;
Mark, you have come to your comfortable place that justifies for you your position and stand. I do not agree with you and for me even your base for your stand is a false assumption.
If I had to go with your stand, I would have to say the the act of living here is what gives the implied consent, not the act of voting. The acts of voting or not voting are actually pretty much the same in your argument, just different paths of choice with different outcomes. Not voting would just be a passive consent. What about paying taxes? Isn't that giving consent as you define it? Do you continue to use government services? Would not the use of government services also imply consent?
If I needed to go to the hospital for emergency care, giving consent to have a broken finger fixed does not mean I give consent to have a lung transplant or agree to avoidable wrong and mistreatment. I think the same goes for those elected and how they do or do not represent the citizens. For me, expressing a choice in an election does not give implied consent but I can see where that act of my living here might. I'll think about that.
I do understand the compelling call to not vote but I think the reality is that is is the dream and desire of the far-right-wing conservatives that the population not vote. I can clearly imagine a Karl Rove strategy meeting where they discuss how to get the progressive liberals to not vote and come up with the "We Do Not Consent" campaign.
I just voted a month ago and the voter turnout was around 10%. I voted for a man that I respect and like even though he ran unopposed because I needed to make a statement of support. I made the decision to not vote in the other three of four races and truth is, in this case it made no difference. Even with all of that, I found it hard to vote because I know without any doubt that the machines are easily hacked and manipulated with malware. I first became aware that politics are dirty and rotten when Pres. Kennedy was shot. In 1980 I became aware that there was something very wrong with elections and in 2000 and 2004, I could not understand why we were not in the streets in the millions.
Voter turn our now is in the upper 30% range for non-presidential years and the mid 50% range for presidential years and it has been like this since the seventies so you have had years of 40-60%+ participating in your form of "I do not consent" and all it has done is enable the the 1% to gain more power and control, especially with the propaganda machine.
I also would like to say that until 8-9 months ago, I was not familiar with any of the names you mentioned and now I only know one of them.I wonder what it is that has kept those that care about elections and voting from discovering each other and being able to work together. I say that because I have spent years of my life working on this issue.
There are many things about the government that I would like to see changed but I am going to stand firm on my position that Hand-Counted Paper Ballots are the most important first step.
Peace
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/8/2011 @ 12:06 pm PT...
Still no time at present to respond to all of this (though I'd still like to! and hope to do so if I can carve out time later tonight), but I wanted to ring in to note to Mark Tucker: We have very few rules for Commenting at The BRAD BLOG.
One of them, however, has to do with personal attacks on other commenters, as you did in one of your comments above to David Lasagna.
Please consider this a friendly warning. Doing so again may lead to removal of both the comment, and your unfettered commenting privileges here.
You are free to personally attack public figures --- folks like myself and Ernie Canning are included in that group, as we have a "bully pulpit" here in being able to create original blog items --- but other commenters are not. So please respect those rules when posting here, whether you agree or disagree with me, Ernie, or anybody else on any particular thing.
Thanks!
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/8/2011 @ 12:11 pm PT...
Mark S Tucker @25--
When you complain about "smarmy ad hominems" and then launch into full swarm mode with such smarmy gems as--
"..an onanistic troll jackball chowderhead like Lasagna, whose excretions..."(and)
"..your and Brad's squalling groupie(who)would chime in with inane fleering means little, the intellectual midget in question an ignorable flimp at best..."(and)
"dimwits like Lasagna who infest the Net like cockroaches."--
you come across as an oblivious, pompous hypocrite who's hard to take seriously.
All that invective cuz I asked you where you got the word "enfraudations" and then made a little fun of you. You made that word up, didn't you?
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 12:59 pm PT...
Thank you for the Pete Seeger reference, Eli.
Sark, I engage in all other forms of noncompliance except for living here. I'm 71, I spent many years living in countries like Mexico, Honduras, and Afghanistan, and if I could, I would leave. That isn't possible for me, so I'm stuck here. But I've never paid taxes--fortunately I only once in my life earned enough money to be required to file, and that year the IRS allowed people to average the past 2 years with the present one, so I still owed nothing. I do almost all my grocery shopping at the co-op and buy almost no corporate brands. I am deeply opposed to imperialist crimes against humanity and try not to support them in any way and to oppose them in every way that I can.
In speaking of election fraud, massive voter turnout, such as in 2004, did nothing to change rigged elections, nor could any other form of voting. Many people excused Kerry for breaking his promises not to concede early and to ensure the votes were counted, by saying that if he had tried, the Supreme Court would have stopped him anyway. In any event Bush, who was never elected, was returned for a second term. In '08 no rigging was required, as the 1% donated huge amounts (slightly more to Obama) to both major candidates, who both supported war and bailouts while most voters did not, so that whoever won, the result would be more wars and more bailouts to benefit the 1%. Voting with paper ballots or having a bigger turnout couldn't have changed that.
Ernest, neither you nor Brad nor Jeannie nor anyone else has said how you could accomplish a peaceful democratic revolution. More poor people voting in rigged elections where the votes don't even have to be counted and the Supreme Court has the final say, certainly won't do it. Amendments to the Constitution, unless they eliminate Congress and the Supreme Court or severely limit their power to judge and thus have the final say in elections won't do it. Putting a few healthy apples into a barrel full of rotten ones won't do it. And granting your consent to the current system while petitioning it to be less evil won't do it either.
Because our imperialist government, no matter which party was in power, has almost constantly been engaged in genocide and crimes against humanity since its inception, it is thoroughly polluted. Only those who see the lives of others as being worth less than their own lives, could fail to see that. As S. Brian Willson says of the millions of innocents our government has been killing for two centuries and continues to kill, "We are not worth more, they are not worth less." This environment may not be totally polluted for you, but it is totally polluted and incapable of sustaining life for millions of innocents. "We are not worth more, they are not worth less." Because I identify with those innocents instead of with those complicit in killing them, this atmosphere is totally polluted as far as I'm concerned. Only those who consider their lives to be worth more than the lives of others, would consider this atmosphere not to be totally polluted.
Crimes against humanity will not be an issue in the 2012 election. It will not be mentioned in the Presidential "debates." It will not be on the ballot. It will be as completely ignored by voters as the stench from the death camps was in Nazi Germany. I consider myself a somewhat conscious being and I cannot ignore the stench of genocide by focusing instead on local candidates, issues, or hopes for change within the system. I've been fooled many times, but I'm not one of the people who can be fooled all of the time.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
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Newman Tomes
said on 12/8/2011 @ 1:01 pm PT...
The republican party is trying to suppress the vote and they have many schills out posting blogs and making robo calls. Talking to them is like talking with a brick wall. The Democrats stayed home last time and we got the tea party. Stay home the next election and we will get more of them.
We need to get more people to vote. Not less. For you people thinking there is no difference in the parties explain why there is nothing getting done. If they were the same we would not be having such a stalemate. Get out and VOTE
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 2:47 pm PT...
To the innocent children Obama is drone-bombing every day, there is no difference whatsoever between the Democrats and the Tea Party, Newman. If you were one of those children, a parent of one of those children, or cared about those children, you wouldn't see a difference either.
It is only because you consider your life to be worth more than the the lives of those innocent children, that you see a difference. Which party is in power might make a slight difference for you, but it would make no difference whatsoever for the innocent children our government, under both Republican and Democratic administrations, continues to murder with drone bombs. But then talking to people who care only about themselves and not about others really is like talking to a brick wall, regardless of their political affiliation.
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/8/2011 @ 3:33 pm PT...
Mark E Smith @ 54
I'm with you on much of what you say here.
Where you lose me is with sweeping statements like-
"Only those who see the lives of others as being worth less than their own lives, could fail to see that(how thoroughly polluted our government is)".
and--"Only those who consider their lives to be worth more than the lives of others, would consider this atmosphere not to be totally polluted."
For me those strokes are way too broad and fail to account for the wide diversity of thought and action of so many people who, I'd guess, are largely in agreement with you, but may have a fundamentally different outlook on the possible effectiveness of certain activities(like voting)that you disdain.
Because your sweeping statements sound dismissive I think you unnecessarily put yourself at odds with many who are probably your teammates.
I can appreciate your grim outlook. I have one, too. But for me the recent and continuing brouhaha caused by the ever-expanding OWS Movement and its ever-widening ripples is triggering a new hope. I do not think it will be easy. I do not think there is not going to be hell to pay for so much of what we've already done. But I am thinking that paradigm shifting is possible. Hell, you can see if happening.
Reading your posts I keep thinking of something Howard Zinn used to point out. I'm gonna mangle it, but basically it was that you can't always foresee how things are gonna go. Zinn would point to the surprise of Franco's Spain turning democratic and the Berlin Wall coming down. He would take the impossibility of always knowing how events will go, the fact that change does sometimes happen in the most unexpected places, the reality of how fragile the powerful's hold on power actually is, and the fact that sometimes enormous change, like ending the Vietnam War, starts out so terribly humbly, as reason to have hope and to pursue dreams of change with a full heart. I'm with him on that.
I think you gotta embrace a certain amount of pessimism cuz we're so fucked. Simultaneously, you gotta embrace a certain amount of optimism in order to keep at it all and to live with the proper spirit. Thank goodness for the paradoxical nature of the universe.
(Just another dimwitted excretion from Bradblog's very own onanistic troll jackball chowderhead,
Cockroach Lasagna)
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/8/2011 @ 4:12 pm PT...
Another great first hand account(and more) from one of Jeannie Dean's compatriots describing his arrest--http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/12/08-3
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 4:40 pm PT...
Here's a jurist, Jules Lobel, who speaks in measured tones, but says that equality and direct democracy are key to the success and long-term sustainability of the Occupy Movement.
http://www.truth-out.org...cupy-movement/1323353901
His message might be more acceptable to many than my own.
To me, it is like seeing somebody killing a puppy or a kitten, and asking them to please turn their stereo down. They may or may not comply, but if you mention that they're killing an innocent creature, they're likely to get upset with you, so it is more polite to just ignore it. Besides, their loud music can be annoying and interfere with your personal pursuit of happiness, but why should it bother you if they kill a few puppies or kittens?
I agree that by not mentioning the elephant in the room, Prof. Lobel's message will reach more people, and probably accomplish more. But if it were your child the elephant was about to stomp on, wouldn't you be screaming about it at the top of your lungs, no matter who resented your message and your tone?
I'm a leftie. The innocent children being killed are my children, every one of them. An injury to them is an injury to me. I do take it personally.
Yes, there are paradoxes, like "look before you leap," compared with "he who hesitates is lost." The same can be said for "insanity is repeating the same experiment and expecting different results," and "demand miracles." I do see things in black and white sometimes, such as in my personal, individual belief that crimes against humanity are bad, evil, wrong, etc. Politicians and voters have more mature, nuanced views, such as that crimes against humanity are sometimes worth it and profitable, aren't worth making a fuss about, and aren't a priority.
Just a matter of differing viewpoints.
In '08 I asked every peace activist I knew who was supporting Kucinich, all of whom were Progressive Democrats, what they'd do if he dropped out of the race (as he eventually did). They told me that they'd hold their noses and vote for whoever their party nominated. People like that are not my teammates. My teammates oppose crimes against humanity at all times, even during "important elections."
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 4:45 pm PT...
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 5:08 pm PT...
I know that many people see not voting as "doing nothing," while they see casting a protest vote for a candidate they know can't win, or voting for "Nobody," "None of the Above," writing in their own name, leaving their ballot blank, deliberately spoiling it, or otherwise voting in elections where their unverifiable votes don't have to be counted, is, at least "doing something."
Since I'm too polite to say exactly what it is they're doing, I'll let the late George Carlin say it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk
I disagree with Carlin, as I don't think voting is that harmless, but perhaps his message is more acceptable than mine.
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 5:18 pm PT...
That's great news, Ernest. I'm sure that Elizabeth Warren wins, and Norman Soloman wins, and a few other good people win, they'll be able to accomplish a lot, at least to give voters hope that the economy might be improved through existing channels and not require revolution, and to give the 1% more time to extract any remaining wealth from this country and shelter it offshore.
Maybe Warren and Solomon can't stop the government from committing crimes against humanity, but they could perhaps express their dissent.
Real change can only come about by changing the system, that is, by changing the game from capitalist imperialism (genocide for profit) to an entirely different game, where everyone wins and nobody loses, not by changing the players.
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 5:18 pm PT...
I, for one, Mark E. Smith, have grown weary of your fallacious reasoning in post-after-post.
You start with assumptions that amount to self-defeating prophesies --- e.g. "a protest vote for a candidate they know can't win." [emphasis added].
The fact is that, by by-passing the corporate media; by changing how we elect as well as whom we elect and by eliminating the democracy deficit, the candidates whom you assume can in fact win by a landslide.
I've got to give credit where credit is due. Your endless diatribes may be utterly lacking in coherence, but you do get an "A" for persistence.
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 6:31 pm PT...
You're right again, Ernest. All we have to do so that good people can win is reform the electoral system and eliminate the democracy deficit.
In order to do that by voting, that is by working within the current electoral system, of course, we first have to elect good people in sufficient numbers to be able to reform the electoral system and eliminate the democracy deficit.
Which we can't do until we first reform the electoral system and eliminate the democracy deficit.
Are you certain that it is my reasoning that is fallacious?
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/8/2011 @ 7:12 pm PT...
Re Mark E. Smith @64:
Did you not read that portion of the article where I suggested that OWS must find "hundreds of Norman Solomons and Elizabeth Warrens?"
You see, the difference between you and I was long ago summed up by Robert F. Kennedy:
"Some men see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not."
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 8:37 pm PT...
Ah, and did you not see, Ernest, where I said that in order to elect hundreds of Norman Solomons and Elizabeth Warrens, we would first need to, as you correctly stated, reform the electoral system and eliminate the democracy deficit?
So you're saying that elections aren't anything that are, but are something that never were that you've creatively dreamed up?
Elections are politics as usual, Ernest, and they can do no more under the present system than they are doing, and that only with great time, effort, and perserverence, and then only at the will of the 1% who fund the elections, have their puppets write the laws, own the media and the voting machines, and alone make it possible for the two major parties to get the billions of dollars they need to remain competitive with each other in the contest for the billions of dollars they need from the 1% in order to remain competitive with each other for the billions of dollars from the 1% that they need in order to remain competitive with each other.
But then you're going to elect hundreds of Elizabeth Warrens and Norman Solomons, without first reforming the electoral system or eliminating the democracy deficit, so that these new people can reform the electoral system and eliminate the democracy deficit, something we'd have to do in order to get that many good people elected so that they could do it.
You are seeing things as they are and dreaming that they could be different without anyone doing things differently. That the system can be changed by continuing to work within the unchanged system.
JFK also summed up our electoral system when he said, "I just received the following wire from my generous Daddy; Dear Jack, Don't buy a single vote more than is necessary. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for a landslide."
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/8/2011 @ 9:26 pm PT...
Reminds me of a quote I saw on a bottle cap years ago--"Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it."
Mark E Smith, I don't think you're hearing what's being said to you.(also, perseverance has an "a" in it)
And with all your words I have yet to see the game plan/time line from you for how abstaining, and abstaining alone, is gonna get any of the millions of things that urgently need to be done, done.
What I get from you is despair. I don't think that's an unreasonable response to what's going on in the world. But you have not cornered the fucking market on feeling pain for all the people, plants, and animals that are suffering due to the way we have done/are doing things. I suspect you have also not cornered the market on having the only viable plan for how to work for meaningful change.
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/8/2011 @ 9:29 pm PT...
Ernie @ 65--
"...between you and ME(not I)..."
Sorry, that's the only English rule I care about.
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/8/2011 @ 9:49 pm PT...
"Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." James Baldwin
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/8/2011 @ 10:59 pm PT...
I'm still waiting for the game plan as to how voters are going to get rid of rigged elections by continuing to vote in rigged elections.
If you're willing to vote in elections where your votes don't have to be counted, what incentive is there to count your votes?
If you're willing to vote in elections where the results are unverifiable, what incentive is there to switch to verifiable voting?
If you're willing to vote in elections where billions of dollars of corporate money has an undue influence, what incentive is there to get corporate money out of politics?
If you're willing to vote for people who haven't represented your interests in the past, what incentive is there for them to represent your interests in the future?
If you're willing to accept Congress seating people whose elections were stolen, without bothering to investigate, what incentive is there for Congress to investigate stolen elections?
If you're willing to vote for people to make policy decisions for you, what incentive is there to allow you a vote on policy issues?
If you're willing to vote in elections held by an imperialist government engaged in continuing crimes against humanity, what incentive is there for the government to end illegal wars?
If you're willing to grant do your civic duty by voting your consent of the governed for a government you claim is screwing you, what incentive is there for the government to stop screwing you?
If you're willing to allow the Electoral College, Congress, or the Supreme Court to decide who will be President, what incentive is there to allow you a direct vote on who will be President?
If you'll settle for electoral politics as usual, what incentive is there for the government to reform the electoral system?
As long as people are willing to vote, whether or not their votes are counted, whether or not their votes are verifiable, whether or not their votes are the final say, and whether or not their votes allow them a voice in policy decisions, what incentive is there for the government to change?
If you're willing to do the same work for ten cents an hour, what incentive is there for an employer to pay you ten dollars an hour?
You get what you're willing to settle for. If you want more, you have to hold out for more.
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/9/2011 @ 1:07 am PT...
Mark E. Smith. This will be my last response on this thread. It is pointless to argue with your tautological sophistries.
See my answer @36.
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/9/2011 @ 6:10 am PT...
Mark E Smith @ 70--
1. Paul Weyrich would be overjoyed at your passionate insistence on not voting. Dovetails perfectly with his prescription and hope for keeping the system you hate running smoothly.
2. You hold out. That's what YOU believe is best. Do it. There are those of us who don't subscribe to your game plan. That seems intolerable to you. You show us about as much understanding, respect, and consideration as Fox News. And you're a lefty.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
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Sark
said on 12/9/2011 @ 9:32 am PT...
Davie and Ernest, thanks for your comments, they are most helpful.
Last night I was thinking about all the discussion here and Mark E.S., I came to the conclusion that discussing the issue of voting with you is very much like my trying to have any meaningful discussion with the women I know that are "one issue anti-abortion" voters. I can over and over point out that their votes lead to many more deaths and "spontaneous" abortions because of wars and environmental harm but they are comfortable and happy with their tunnel vision and stay focused on "choice".
I also keep thinking about the firefighters that stood down and let homes burn in Tennessee because families had not paid a fee, did not give their "consent" to have fire protection. I know there are differences but there are haunting parallels.
And, I wonder about the all or nothing thinking when it comes to my participation in organizations and causes in the USA and abroad. Because I cannot save every child, should I stop giving to organizations that are "on the ground" trying to do what they can to address all the problems and issues. Is my giving to some women's co-ops and supporting children in orphanages somehow implying that I consent to the governments and conditions of their countries?
And Mark, I do admire and support all you are doing and have done to decrease your footprint and participation in the system but the fact remains that you are still here and you still do contribute to the running of the system. You say you have your reasons why you cannot move and I accept that, I have mine also. But, why is your excuse or reasoning for what you do superior and/or more valid than others' reasons for what they are doing when they make their choices?
I also wonder about your complete denial of the mathematical proofs that clearly show that mass participation in voting is the only tool we now have to overcome the 49/51 or 48/52 flipping the vote, hack the elections algorithms?
I have also been trying to figure out your comments about the progressives you know that supported Kucinich and would hold their noses and vote for the D nominee any way if Kucinich did not get the nomination. It almost sounds like that you would be okay with voting for Kucinich or other very progressive candidates. (I think he was #3 on the list of "progressive/liberal candidates.) I thought the whole thing with you was the actual voting, period, no matter who may or may not be running.
Well, it is all interesting....
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 11:05 am PT...
Sark, vote flipping is just one of many ways of rigging elections that use computers. Programming the central tabulators to allocate votes proportionally rather than as case is another, and I explained above why greater turnout can't do anything about that. And of course if the Supreme Court decides that the votes won't be counted at all, it wouldn't matter if there was 100% turnout.
I wouldn't have been okay voting for Kucinich. I believe that this country is run by the 1% and neither Congress nor the President have the power to defy the 1% and their agenda. At the time I asked peace activists who they'd vote for if Kucinich dropped out, he had already publicly stated that his candidacy was a long shot and that if he didn't get the nomination he'd throw his support to whichever of his good friends, Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, was nominated. His loyalty is to his fellow oligarchs, not to peace. He only supports peace between elections.
If you'd read my article on The Value of Voting, you'd know that I'm not against voting, regardless of who's running. I'm only against voting within an undemocratic system of government where it cannot make things better and can only make things worse.
Your argument with one-issue abortion voters is correct and applies to all other voters. No matter what issue they are voting for, or what candidate they are voting for, their votes lead to more wars and more environmental harm.
Supporting the orphans and others that governments are harming, is not granting consent to the governments harming them. Voting to legitimize such governments is granting your consent to allow governments to continue to harm those you're trying to help.
Election boycotts don't always work. Here's a story from last month about one attempt that didn't work in Morocco: Thousands of Moroccans Call for Election Boycott The story quotes one guy in Tangier who said, "They (officials) promise that these elections will change things for the better but we always hear the same tune and nothing ever changes. You just vote and that's the end of it."
It might not work here either because too many people are complacent and content with capitalism and imperialism. But it did work in South Africa, Cuba, and Haiti, so election boycotts are still the only proven nonviolent way to delegitimize a government. Voters are people with enough faith in their government to trust its elections. I do not trust either my government or its faith-based elections and I won't gamble in rigged games, particularly if what I'm gambling isn't just my own money and future, but everyone else's too.
Ernest, thank you for giving me this venue in which to defend my ideas. While I never expected to convince you or Brad, I appreciate the opportunity to expose other readers to concepts they might never otherwise read about.
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
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Newman Tomes
said on 12/9/2011 @ 12:31 pm PT...
My grandfather was a teacher and a lawyer at the same time. He said watch out for the person that tells you one thing but spins something else to fool you into thinking he is right. The republican party has been trying to suppress the vote for years now. Anyone that follows the news would know that. Except Fox news that spins the news to hang on to their following. Their just like religion. Tell people their the only true religion or as Fox does their the only true news.
When someone tells you, you should not vote look for the true reason behind it. Don't fall for the spin about something else. THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO VOTE. Like I said in a previous message talking to them is like talking to a brick wall. Just try to learn as much as you can about the issues and VOTE.
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 3:26 pm PT...
A friend of mine just posted this:
It all boils down to your level of self respect.
You respect and pay pilgrimage to a sick and evil system....time after time.......
by your mere participation.
How obvious does it have to get?
The Republican Party could not afford to compete with the Democratic Party if it didn't get billions of dollars from the big multinational corporations owned by the 1%. The Democratic Party could not compete with the Republican Party if it didn't get billions of dollars in campaign donations from those same big multinational corporations owned by the 1%. Both parties present their candidates to the big policy-making bodies founded by the 1%, like the Trilateral Commissions and the Council on Foreign Relations, and bid for those billions in campaign donations by pledging to promote the agenda of the 1%.
The Republicans do spend a few millions, less than 1% of the amount they spend getting out the vote, on suppressing voter turnout. If they didn't, people might suspect that uncounted, unverifiable votes for candidates they can't hold accountable, might not be valuable. By spending what is for them a pittance on voter suppression, they can convince some ignorant people that uncounted, unverifiable votes for people they can't hold accountable, must be worth something, or else why would the Republicans be trying to take away their uncounted, unverifiable votes for people they can't hold accountable?
Don't fall for their dirty tricks. Learn as much about the issues as you can, and once you begin to understand that uncounted, unverifiable votes for people you can't hold accountable have no effect on government policy, DON'T VOTE! As Emma Goldman said, if voting could change anything, they'd make it illegal. And as the Wobblies used to say, Don't vote--it only encourages them.
If you participate in elections funded by the 1%, you are granting the 1% your consent to continue to govern you. If you're happy with the way that the 1% is governing you, then keep casting your uncounted, unverifiable ballots for people you can't hold accountable. Otherwise, try something different, like direct democracy where you votes actually count, are verifiable, and are a real voice on policy issues, rather than just a sham referendum on which puppet you'd prefer to make policy decisions dictated to them by the 1%.
As for Ernest's idea of electing a majority of good people without corporate money so that corporate money could be removed from politics, it would only be possible if billions in corporate money were first removed from politics. As long as billions of dollars in corporate money can remain in politics, it is impossible to elect enough people who aren't beholden to corporate money to remove it from the system.
As for all the proposed Amendments, unless they removed the Constitutional power vested in the Supreme Court to strike such amendments down as unconstitutional or "interpret" them to mean the exact opposite of what they say, they are doomed to failure.
This system sucks. And you can't get a better one by voting. A vote in an undemocratic system is a vote FOR an undemocratic system. Don't be fooled!
It isn't about Democrats vs. Republicans. It is about the people vs. the capitalist imperialist 1% who own and rule the world. Elections are a divisive strategy by the 1% to get people fighting with each other instead of fighting the governments that are helping the 1% continue to destroy the planet for profit. Watch out for the person who wants you to look at the bum fight without telling you that the rich person who paid those bums to fight in order to profit from the video is making a killing on that small investment, and the bums needed the money but had never wanted to fight each other--they were bought out the same way that voters are.
But, Newman, if you are determined to do your civic duty to this rotten system, next time would you please at least remember to flush? Thank you.
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 3:43 pm PT...
Clarification: The Supreme Court couldn't strike down an Amendment, but if the Amendment was adopted outside the Article 5 process, they could say that it isn't valid because it wasn't adopted according the the only process that the Supreme Court rules Constitutional. Legal scholars can interpet the Constitution as allowing Amendments to be adopted outside the Article 5 process, under the theory that alternative interpretations of the Constitution can exist. But the enumerated right of the Supreme Court to be the sole and final decider of whether an alternative interpretation is valid or not, is not a right that remains unenumerated or ungranted, and could thus be retained by the States or the people.
Anyone can interpret the Constitution to allow Amendments outside the Article 5 process, but since the Supreme Court alone has the right to interpret the Constitution, it is the Supreme Court alone that can decide which interpretation is valid.
So in the process of holding a Constitutional Convention outside the Article 5 process, because the Article 5 process is lengthy and not likely to succeed, the Supreme Court can decide that the Article V process is the only Constitutionally valid process and rule that Amendments adopted outside that process are not valid.
When you're dealing with supreme power, it is extremely difficult to get around the fact that supreme power has supreme and ultimate power.
If you don't like the system, stop supporting it and create a better one. Trying to work within a system that doesn't allow you to have the power to make changes, is simply trying to get a tyranny to be a bit less tyrannical. It might result in some reforms, but it wouldn't change the power structure. If you're fine with power being vested in the hands of the government instead of in the hands of the people, continue to vote, but don't try to claim that the government you're legitimizing with your vote is either a democracy or a republic. In either of those systems, you'd have supreme power, not your elected representatives and not an unelected Supreme court.
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
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Sark
said on 12/9/2011 @ 4:26 pm PT...
Mark, I understand all of that and how the rigging/hacking is done, just replying to something you said. I also know that it is much more difficult to change election results with a high voter turnout and to explain exit polling results that flip more than 4%. I also think your insistence that the Supreme Court could/would overturn any election where all the votes were HCPB has no place in reality. I am sure it may be comforting for you to hold onto that position.
And, I know what you wrote in The Value of Voting, again, just replying to what you said about the Kucinich supporters. I do not agree with you that those that vote on one issue only are like all other voters. That is like the example of many different blindfolded individuals describing an elephant from many different places around and on the elephant, one place or issue gives you something different that those that look at the whole.
And, as I have said to you before, your comparison to the countries of South Africa, Cuba and Haiti are not valid for today's reality and the USA. I have yet to see you post any clear path to change that your position would provide. You did say something about other countries would look at the USA and take a position and when I responded that it is pretty clear that no other countries could, would, and/or have the ability to do anything and the 1% couldn't care less about other countries except for how they can also be exploited for profit, you did not show how your position would overcome this. In fact, going with your argument, I think we would have a much better chance with other countries and the supreme court if there was massive voter turnout and clear action against election fraud. Maybe if the 40-60% that already don't vote would start participating in the process and took to the streets to demand reform and change, we'd see some positive progress.
Your statement about voters being people with enough faith in their government to trust it's elections just does not ring true either for all those that are out there protesting, Occupying and working at address election problems and issues. I am not much of one to go on faith, I prefer to face facts and realities.
Obviously, I do not agree with your position about the "do not give consent" and voting. I think it is a manipulative use of language just like "pro-life". And, as I have stated, I think that the very act of living here gives consent, voter or nonvoter. Today I have called senators and my repnot in congress, written letters and signed petitions concerning war, defense budget, Keystone XL pipeline, women and children prisoners in other countries, those detained illegally or unjustly all over the world, poverty, environmental concerns, concern for the needs of all children concerning basic needs and education, concern for animal welfare, for the climate, for housing issues and homelessness, health care, support for small farmers, support for the ocean and ocean life and more and on and on. It is an almost daily activity for me and I do it as a voter and I admit that there is a part of me that would like to think that doing so as a voter means something. You say voting is giving consent and I say voting is using my voice to say I will not be silenced no matter how oppressive and ugly and cruel and unjust and corrupt the government becomes.
Peace
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
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Sark
said on 12/9/2011 @ 4:35 pm PT...
Just saw my post #73
David, my apology for the typo misspelling of your name. Again, my thanks to you for your posts.
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/9/2011 @ 5:35 pm PT...
Looks like the train has long ago left the station, and I'm unlikely to catch up with it here as I've been buried in an investigative story of late (speaking of runaway trains that I'm having trouble catching up to!)
So, for whatever it's worth to those still following this exhausting thread, a very few comments on some of the earlier points, as I admit not even being able to read most of the latter (and I thought Ernie and I were long winded!!!)
To Mark Tucker at various: No, the "self-delusional lame-brainisms" largely referred to the other Mark. The "dialectical sand traps" were largely yours, seemingly set for reasons that seem to have more to do with avoiding actual points made and discussed here, for whatever reason you may wish to do that, than anything else. As to your absent sense of humor in regard Ernie's comments, you may wanna take in a breath of fresh air before unleashing next time. I'm purdy sure everyone else here realized the joke, good or bad, in his "Mark men" comment.
Nonetheless, missing the joke, you asked Ernie what he meant when he joked about "'this place' being 'hijacked' by 'Mark men'" and went on to respond that this was "only the second dialogue thread [you've] ever participated in on Brad Blog".
While Ernie was clearing making a "Mark" joke that seems to have gone over your head, if there was any "hijacking" on your part here, I'm fairly certain it would be illustrated by your obsession with the root of the word "democracy", when, in fact, Ernie's article was about the many facets of the "electoral politics", which entails a great deal more than simply "democracy" in it's most archaically defined etymology.
For those who find Mark T's hijacked bluster concerning the word "democracy", if you think he's using an archaic, narrow definition of that word to make a mystery point, you should see him have at his own narrow, personal definition of the word "capitalism" in his 7-part --- yes, 7-parts! --- series promised on both it and me that he sends to a small email list. So far, he's up to Part 2 and we're all still waiting with baited breath for the crucial point (even any point) of the series to emerge.
Nonetheless, I'm glad you feel free to opine in response to authors here, positively or otherwise. It's a shame such open discussion of your own work isn't allowed to take place on your private, one-way email list (else your readers might learn of your way-too-many far-too-unnecessary factual errors). But always glad to see you here! Have at me and Ernie and the ideas of others as you like. That's what makes democracy, in which I do actually believe, so grand. Though do try and mind our very few rules for commenting, as requested earlier, in the bargain.
To Mark E. Smith: Just a few points worth responding to. (Though, admittedly, many many more I haven't had time, or all that much interest, to be frank, in reading, given they appear to offer the same long-ago debunked talking points you've offered here year after year after year.)
In your pointless fight to continue supporting the status quo in this nation --- where the majority of people don't bother to vote, the results of which are apparent to purdy much everyone in this nation --- I can only assume you favor that status quo, based on your insistence that the few people who do bother to vote in this country stop doing so immediately.
That is your right, as I've averred many times. Seems dumb to me, as you know. And I think we can and should do much better than what we've made for ourselves (whether that comes from voting or not voting), but whatevs. A few specific responses...
You wrote somewhere up there...
In 2006 there were six stolen elections appealed to Congress that they didn't even bother to investigate, the most famous one being that of Clint Curtis, which was fully documented here on BradBlog.
Actually, there were six (or four?) federal elections in 2006 which were challenged in Congress. Some of the challengers offered evidence suggesting they may not have lost. None were conclusively proven to have been "stolen" by any stretch of the imagination. All were outrageously dismissed without even cursory examination of what evidence there was to back up the challenges. If your source for the "full documentation" of "six stolen elections" came from The BRAD BLOG, then I can only guess there's another blog out there by the same name, different from the one that I actually write.
we have tons of evidence of election fraud, along with tons of evidence that there is nothing within our power to do about it.
Uh, I'm with you on the first part. Clueless where you come up with the second part. Not only can we do something about it, many great citizens and patriots who are not satisfied with the status quo, as you seem to be, actually are doing something about it, and have achieved great strides towards that end in the process. Where you been, amigo? You sure pay close attention to some things here, while ignoring everything that doesn't suit your preconceived agenda.
If this was a democracy and if our votes had to be counted and were verifiable, I'd be proud to vote, as I did for many years.
As I recall, you're down in San Diego, where you are lucky enough to be able to cast votes that are entirely verifiable. I'd think you'd want to spend time fighting to make sure they are verified, rather than convincing folks not to cast the verifiable votes they are already casting down there. But, again, you prefer the failed status quo in this country as it is, clearly.
Somewhere way up there, you suggested that by voting one gives there consent to every facet of a flawed system, because you believe that election fraud can occur within that system and voting is consenting to the fraud (or some such, forgive me for not going back to find the specifics, as I don't mean to misrepresent what you said). By that same silly logic, since rapes occur on the streets of San Diego at times, I guess you are consenting to rape by walking the streets? Why do you support rape, Mark?
Finally, while the thread (as far as I was able to read it, anyway) seems to have devolved into a discussion of pros and cons of voting, a gentle reminder that Ernie's piece wasn't actually about voting. It was about OWS moving in to the "Electoral Process". That, obviously, might involve voting. It would also involve putting up candidates. It would also involve becoming candidates. It would also involve "Occupying" the polling places to oversee them to help ensure those legal voters who wish to vote actually get to vote, and "Occupying" counting rooms and court rooms to fight to see that those folks actually have their votes counted, counted accurately and transparently. It would also involve the process of helping to get initiatives onto the ballot, and much more.
That you continue your fruitless support of the status quo, for pointless year upon pointless year, instead of figuring out how to leverage the system in order to change the system to one which serves us all better, is as absurd today as it was the first day you wasted so much of our time with it here years ago. Though I congratulate you on your apparent successes over those years. Voting was way down in November 2010, so I'll presume you were delighted with the results in the bargain!
Yet, I must wonder, if Occupiers take the time to join the Electoral Process in order to put a national referendum on the ballot for a Constitutional Amendment declaring that rights of the Constitution refer onto to actual people (not corporations), that corporations may not participate in the electoral process and...just for fun...all votes are to be cast on paper ballots and hand-counted publicly at the polling place, will you still be advocating for people to boycott elections? I think you'd have to, right? You wouldn't vote in such an election, I'll presume and you'd advocate that nobody else does as well, since they'd otherwise be consenting to a system you don't agree with, correct?
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 6:28 pm PT...
Brad, if there was any chance that the Supreme Court would allow a Constitutional amendment eliminating corporate personhood to be added to the Constitution by means of a national referendum, under the circumstances you mention, I'd vote for that amendment. Unfortunately, the Constitution has already stipulated how Amendments can be added, that is, through the Article 5 process, and the Supreme Court has the final power to declare all other attempts, such as referendums, to be unconstitutional and invalid procedures for adding amendments.
As for San Diego, I believe you remember the CA50 election where we were unable to verify the votes even long after it was too late. The Republican candidate was sworn in before the election was certified while thousands of votes remained uncounted. Once a candidate is sworn into Congress, only Congress itself can remove them, and there have been more incidents of it raining pretty pink ponies in Los Angeles than of Congress removing a sitting Member of Congress. Votes here are tallied by central tabulators, and if you know of any way to verify that they haven't been hacked or their programming tampered with by insiders, I'd like to know about it--particularly if it can be done in less than the time it takes for Congress to swear in a candidate with no proof that they'd actually won their election, an entire week in the CA50 case. Because Congress can swear in a Congressperson before an election is certified, while voters can't even request a recount until after the election is certified, by the time voters can prove that an election was stolen, it is too late for voters to do anything about it and Congress never has and isn't likely to in the future.
I would not say that walking the streets gives consent to rape, as Sark apparently would, or even that walking the streets naked gives consent to rape. But I would say that if you are asked to vote in an election for people to whom you will delegate the power to decide if you should be raped or not, even if you vote for somebody who doesn't think you should be raped, you are consenting to allow whoever wins to make that decision, and it might not be the anti-rape candidate you voted for. Even if it is, the Supreme Court could install a pro-rape candidate by simply not counting the votes, or your anti-rape candidate could concede before the votes can be counted, or they could change their mind about rape once they're in office. If you vote in an election that will determine who has the power to decide if you should be raped or not, then I would say that yes, by voting, you are formally consenting, if not to being raped, at least to not having any say in the matter.
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
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Sark
said on 12/9/2011 @ 7:04 pm PT...
Mark, I have nothing more to say to you. You have clearly walked over the line when you say whatever you are saying about rape and try to put words in my mouth. I haven't even read all or most of what you have said, just saw the first sentence of your last paragraph and after that I refuse to read any more.
That is enough to have me walk away from this with disgust and I will not read anything you write and if I should see your posts any place, I will reply with a screen shot of the above post to show exactly why I refuse to read and give any time to anything you say. Peace and may you find some comfort that will keep you from ever again doing to others what you have done to me.
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/9/2011 @ 7:57 pm PT...
I hate to have to add anything to this over-redundant thread, but there is one addition to Brad's thoughtful comment as it pertains to Mark Smith's "tons of evidence that there is nothing within our power to do about [election fraud]."
Tell that to the Clay County Eight who were sentenced a combined 156 years for election fraud. Seems 156 years is "something."
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 9:33 pm PT...
Ernest, it is indeed "something" that the corrupt elections officials who rigged elections were sentenced to prison. But what about Senator Jim DeMint? Has he been removed from the Senate?
What about all the City Councilmembers and other City, State, and federal officials who were fraudulently elected? Have they been removed from office? Has any legislation in which they cast the deciding vote or constituted the majority vote been repealed as tainted?
This apparently went on for decades. I do not happen to believe it was an isolated incident, I just think these people were so dumb that they got caught, while in most cases the people who rig elections are much more sophisticated and haven't been caught.
While the people who rigged the elections that caused harm to many voters, by putting into office officials who had not actually been elected by the voters, and who, once in office, probably voted for harmful legislation, such as unjust taxation, deregulating industry, outsourcing jobs, privatizing public property, and, in the case of federal legislators, starting and/or funding war crimes, I don't see that justice has been done by jailing and fining the corrupt elections officials. The people who were fraudulently elected served out their terms or are still in office, and the harmful laws they voted for are still on the books.
Proving that an election was stolen after the person who was fraudulently elected contributed to the deaths of innocent children, does not bring those children back to life. It doesn't even remove the fraudulently elected person from office so that they cannot continue to kill innocent children.
If corrupt elections officials manipulated the election of a corrupt judge, who then sentenced you to death for a crime you'd never committed and for which there was no evidence, punishing the corrupt elections officials does not remove the judge from office so that they can't murder other innocent people in the future, and it certainly doesn't bring you back to life. It is "something," in the sense of being more than is usually possible, but it is not "something" in terms of bringing justice and redress to the voters and victims who were seriously harmed, or even removing the fraudulently elected officials who did that harm from office and repealing the decisions they made and the legislation they passed.
Maybe you can get people to sign petitions or get up a referendum to ask Congress to impeach Jim DeMint, and attempt to request recalls or impeachments of all other officials who were fraudulently elected. But you can't vote to have them removed from office. You can wait until their terms of office are up and then vote in hopes of electing officials who might represent you instead of harming you, but the next set of corrupt elections officials are likely to have a lot more money and a lot of much more sophisticated election-rigging techniques. By the time you manage to prove that they've also been rigging elections, you'll have another decade's worth of fraudulently elected officials in office and your grandchildren will still be responsible for the debts they ran up.
Best of luck in asking Congress to impeach DeMint. It would be the first time Congress ever impeached a sitting Member, and a historic occasion. A pity you have to petition Congress instead of being able to vote him out of office directly. But that's how our system works.
Oh yeah, the cops just busted a few dozen medical marijuana users. That should put an end to the drug cartels and the opium trade, right?
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 9:49 pm PT...
Okay, busting medical marijuana users won't put an end to the drugs cartels and the opium trade, but at least it is "doing something." It takes FOX News viewers' attention away from the DEA arming drug cartels and the US controlling the opium trade in Afghanistan, and gives them hope that since a few small-timers were arrested, the bigger crimes might also someday be addressed.
That's not going to happen, but FOX News viewers are easily distracted.
Eight people sentenced to a combined 146 years is an average of slightly less than 20 years each. Subtract time off for good behavior, possible pardons from the higher-ups they didn't roll over on, and it is unlikely that any of them will serve even ten years.
DeMint serves on the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee, the Joint Economic Committee, and the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. Convicting a few low-level people who helped to fraudulently put him in office does nothing to change that.
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/9/2011 @ 11:12 pm PT...
In comment #51 Sark said:
If I had to go with your stand, I would have to say the the act of living here is what gives the implied consent, not the act of voting.
How does that differ from saying that it is the act of being on the street that gives implied consent to rape, not the act of agreeing to be raped or agreeing to allow the winner of an election to decide if you should be raped?
If just living here is consent to be governed, without formally granting that consent by voting, then just being on the street is consent to be raped, without more formal consent being necessary.
But I wasn't talking about implied consent, I was talking about affirmative consent, as I explained clearly in Consensual Political Intercourse.
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
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Stephen Unger
said on 12/10/2011 @ 2:15 pm PT...
There seems to be general agreement here that no branch of our government really represents the people--rather the government is owned by the 1% (or maybe the 0.1%). One faction concludes that we should not vote because voting is an implied endorsement of the government and its actions. If this were to be interpreted as, "don't vote for Republicans or Democrats", who differ only in rhetoric, then I would agree. But I don't see what would be lost by voting for candidates of a third party (perhaps the Greens, or else a new party started by Occupiers), running candidates pledged to principles corresponding to OWS positions.
To vote would not mean that all other Occupy activities would have to be terminated. We could vote as above, and still carry out a full set of militant nonviolent activities.
I believe that, at some point, there was a comment that it wouldn't help if we couldn’t elect enough candidates to take over the government. That is not a good reason not give up on elections. If, for example, our new party got millions of votes and elected a a handful of members of congress in 2012, and perhaps a bunch of people in state and local governments, that might be enough to trigger a large movement of voters away from the major parties and lead to a massive victory the next time around.
Certainly, voting would not preclude, and would in fact be perfectly consistent with, working to fix our electoral system by, for example, getting money out of politics, and getting rid of voting machines.
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/10/2011 @ 2:38 pm PT...
Mark E. Smith - As usual. Most of your wordy bluster not worth a response. But on a few points...
Unfortunately, the Constitution has already stipulated how Amendments can be added, that is, through the Article 5 process, and the Supreme Court has the final power to declare all other attempts, such as referendums, to be unconstitutional and invalid procedures for adding amendments.
Sigh...as usual, it seems you missed the point.
As for San Diego, I believe you remember the CA50 election where we were unable to verify the votes even long after it was too late.
Remember it?! I was the one who let you (and the world) know about the concerns about that Special Election.
The Republican candidate was sworn in before the election was certified while thousands of votes remained uncounted.
Right. In the unusual circumstances of that Special Election, where the GOP abused their power, that was done. Normally, of course, there is both a set date for elections and set time that candidates are sworn in (a date well after the races haves been certified).
Once a candidate is sworn into Congress, only Congress itself can remove them, and there have been more incidents of it raining pretty pink ponies in Los Angeles than of Congress removing a sitting Member of Congress.
Actually, I live in L.A., and haven't seen it raining pretty pink ponies even once. And yet, back in 1985, according to Wikipedia, we find...
Votes here are tallied by central tabulators, and if you know of any way to verify that they haven't been hacked or their programming tampered with by insiders, I'd like to know about it
I've written about it many times here. You weren't paying attention to those particular articles for some reason? Because they didn't fit in with your preconceived narrative of self-defeat and undying allegiance to the current status quo system of election boycotts that has brought you the mess we have today?
Of course, the usually-unmentioned point in response to your inane prattling and support of the status quo, is that, as it turns out, there are other things on teh ballot in every election that have nothing to do with President or Federal offices. But I guess state and local officials and initiatives on the ballot don't matter at all, so I'm sure you're very happy that the system continues to work just as you had hoped it would, where folks boycott elections.
Again, I think we can do better than what we have today. You like things as they are, it seems. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
Oh...and, btw, Jim DeMint is not from Kentucky, as you innacurately aver in your next comment. The once unverifiable elections in KY are quickly changing to verifiable elections. Where they had, until 2008, been almost 100% unverifiable, thanks to folks who didn't falsely charge that nothing can be done, most of the state now votes on verifiable hand-marked paper ballots.
And as to: "all the City Councilmembers and other City, State, and federal officials who were fraudulently elected," not that I really want your answer, but which "City, State and federal officials who were fraudulently elected" are you talking about? And what evidence do you have that they were "fraudulently elected"?
TIP: If your responses were either far less frequent, or far less lengthy (by 75% or so), your arguments might be better appreciated and absorbed by readers, including readers like myself. Though I doubt it.
COMMENT #89 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/10/2011 @ 2:41 pm PT...
Ernie noted at 83:
one addition to Brad's thoughtful comment as it pertains to Mark Smith's "tons of evidence that there is nothing within our power to do about [election fraud]."
Tell that to the Clay County Eight who were sentenced a combined 156 years for election fraud. Seems 156 years is "something."
As is, the fact that Mark is even able to vote in verifiable elections in San Diego at all (if he were to so choose) is due to something about the intolerable and unverifiable elections they had their previously, and had planned for the future!
If not for folks actually taking action to improve the system over the years, Mark would indeed have little choice but to vote in unverifiable elections down there, as he pretends he must now. (Making up ones own facts to justify ones own bad ideas seems to be Mark's preferred course of advocacy. But, like the Republicans whose agenda Mark seems to support, do the same, all of that makes perfectly good sense.)
I could, of course, go on and on about the many things that election integrity advocates (versus opponents, like Mark) have, indeed, done "about [election fraud]" over the years to make it more difficult for bad guys to get away with. But it'd likely fall on deaf ears, since Mark is interested in his own pink ponies, rather than reality.
COMMENT #90 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:03 pm PT...
Thank you Stephen @#87. It is delightfully refreshing to see a comment that, while expressing disagreement with my position, is devoid of ad hominem attacks.
If we had proportional representation, like many European countries where, when a political party gets 10% of the vote, they get 10% of the seats in parliament, I might still be a Green. (And, of course, if it didn't favor the 1% over the 99%, I still might be a registered member of the Democratic Party and wouldn't have gone over to the Greens.)
There has already been a large movement of people away from the major parties, and in my opinion, that is one of the reasons that the Citizens United decision came to be, so that the 1% could spend unlimited amounts of money in major media fearmongering campaigns to persuade people who are disillusioned with both parties in power, to continue to vote. The threat is that if people don't vote, things will get worse, but of course people have been voting for more than 200 years and things continue to get worse, so-called "representative" government becoming less and less representative with every election.
One problem is that while voters may be attracted to third parties, many will be attracted to right wing third parties rather than to left wing third parties. Basically, I see elections as a divisive strategy, a tactic by the 1% to divide and rule, to get people fighting each other instead of fighting the 1%.
While voting doesn't preclude other activities, it does make it more difficult for those other activities to succeed. For example, voting doesn't preclude protests, marches, and demonstrations, but it does make it easier for the police state to claim legitimacy when using violence to suppress such activities, as it can claim the authority of being a democratically elected government. The greater the turnout, the more legitimacy (consent of the governed) a government can claim when suppressing civil dissent.
If there was a way to vote for candidates who support OWS positions, without simultaneously granting my consent of the governed to a government that will bash my head in and arrest me for expressing OWS positions, I'd vote. But it is a package deal, all or none. We either accept the system and try to change it from within, which means that as we work to change it, we tolerate everything on the OWS List of Grievances that we oppose, or we reject the system and try to create a new and better system.
Voting doesn't preclude working to get money out of politics or working to get rid of voting machines, but it does, by granting the consent of the governed, empower representatives, rather than we the people, to make those decisions.
If I want soup for lunch, I'd like to be able to make that decision for myself. If I delegate the power to decide what I can have for lunch to somebody else, they may or may not decide to allow me to have soup for lunch. If I delegate my power to decide what to have for lunch by voting in an election for representatives who will make that decision for me, a candidate who will allow me soup for lunch might lose to a candidate who won't. So I'd much prefer to retain the power to make that decision for myself instead of delegating it to somebody else.
In fact, it isn't just personal decisions, such as what I can eat, who I can marry, or how I can protest, that I don't want to delegate to others, but even decisions about wars, taxes, industry regulations, and many other things on the OWS List of Grievances. I believe that we the people can make better decisions than those in government because we're less likely to be corrupted by power. If I recall correctly, decentralized power is one of the Green Party's Ten Key Values. So participating in a system of government that centralizes power, is Green hypocrisy.
I hope you'll let me know if you agree or disagree with my response, Stephen. It is a real pleasure to discuss things with someone who can do so in a mature and civil manner.
COMMENT #91 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:19 pm PT...
In response to Brad @#88:
In McIntyre v. McCloskey Congress chose which candidate to seat, but did NOT remove a sitting Member of Congress.
If you have written many times about ways to verify that the central tabulators tallied the votes accurately and weren't hacked or tampered with by insiders (in time to prevent an unelected candidate from being sworn into office), I apologize for missing all those articles. However, if they exist, which I really doubt, you can easily prove me wrong by supplying even one link to any one of them.
My comments regarding Jim DeMint were taken from Ernest Canning's Brad Blog article:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8514
Although it happened in South Carolina, Ernest implies that since it was done with the same unverifiable voting machines, the same type of election fraud that resulted in the Kentucky convictions, might explain the Greene/DeMint debacle. I agree, as I can think of no better explanation.
I have no evidence that any officials were fraudulently elected, as a system where most votes are unverifiable does not allow such evidence to be obtained. But if you think that ten years of election fraud didn't result in a single unelected candidate being sworn into office, why bother to work towards verifiable elections, since unverifiable elections have never resulted, to your knowledge, in a single unelected candidate being seated?
COMMENT #92 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:25 pm PT...
Re Steven Unger @87:
I think one has to be cautious not to paint the entire Democratic Party with an over broad brush. Certainly the current leadership is dominated by corporatists, but you would make a grave mistake by putting that label on a Norman Solomon or an Elizabeth Warren.
I think Occupy Electoral Politics should entail flexibility, including an attempt to occupy the Democratic Party to the point that those who've sold out to the corporate security state are driven from power. There is no reason why corporate American should control two parties or why OWS should not seek to change the status quo in the Democratic Party.
That said, as I also mentioned in the article, "We must acquire the courage to vote for a third party candidate when the difference between a corporate Democrat and a Republican is so marginal as to amount to no choice whatsoever."
COMMENT #93 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:34 pm PT...
Before Brad points me towards articles that merely attempt to get computers out of elections, my point that was there is no way to verify that the central tabulators weren't hacked or tampered with, because the only way to attempt to verify that would be to examine the audit logs, and experts have proven that they can be hacked and tampered with in ways that leave no trace on the audit logs.
While teams of computer forensics experts might be able to find such tampering, it would take them a long time and a lot of effort, and they can't gain access to the audit logs until after the election has been certified, which means that they wouldn't be able to prove fraud until a long time after a fraudlently-elected candidate has been seated, after which an appeal to Congress is the only remedy and it is a remedy that Congress has never chosen to use.
COMMENT #94 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:40 pm PT...
Re Mark E. Smith @91.
The linked article that you attribute to me was written by Brad.
Nowhere did I say that DeMint committed "the same type of election fraud that resulted in the Kentucky convictions."
If you had bothered to read Brad's coverage of the Clay County 8, you would know that they had engaged in a low tech --- retail --- scheme.
The bigger concern of EI advocates is wholesale vulnerability of e-voting systems to election insiders and the absence of transparency.
COMMENT #95 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:44 pm PT...
Correction: According to wiki Congress did once attempt to remove a sitting Member of Congress, William Blount, a Senator from Tennessee, in 1797. The case was dismissed and he was not removed. Congress has never made any attempt to impeach a sitting Member of Congress since 1797.
Congress often will issue reprimands and attempt to shame a criminal Member of Congress into resigning, but they won't impeach. With only a 9% approval rating, if Congress became open to requests for impeachment, the overwhelming majority of them would be vulnerable.
COMMENT #96 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:50 pm PT...
Brad, there is one boycott Mark has finally convinced me to engage in.
On this thread, I am going to refrain from further reading or responding to any further comments from Mark E. Smith.
Occupy Electoral Politics and Boycott Mark E. Smith!
COMMENT #97 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/10/2011 @ 3:55 pm PT...
I stand corrected, Ernest. You had posted a link to that article above, but it was indeed written by Brad.
I didn't say that the article stated that the same type of election fraud took place with regard to Greene/DeMint, but that it was "implied" by including that incident in the article and noting that the same unverifiable election machines had been used.
While election integrity advocates are indeed more concerned about the lack of transparency creating wholesale vulnerability of e-voting systems to fraud, such fraud is extremely difficult, if not impossible to prove, while low-tech retain schemes are easier to prove and result in convictions.
I'm still a little perplexed as to why you think those convictions accomplished anything, if they hadn't resulted in any unelected officials gaining office, and eliminating those more easily documented means of election fraud simply allows for more sophisticated and less easily documented means to take their place. Is making the process more rather than less vulnerable to fraud an election integrity accomplishment?
COMMENT #98 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/10/2011 @ 4:08 pm PT...
Comment #96 is, by my count, the third time that Ernest has announced that he will not respond to me any more.
In #71 Ernest said:
Mark E. Smith. This will be my last response on this thread. It is pointless to argue with your tautological sophistries.
In #83 Ernest said:
I hate to have to add anything to this over-redundant thread, but there is one addition to Brad's thoughtful comment as it pertains to Mark Smith's "tons of evidence that there is nothing within our power to do about [election fraud]."
And now in #96, Ernest says that after starting this whole thing by writing an article that specifically mentioned me and my ideas, despite believing that neither I nor my ideas are worth discussing or responding to, that he intends to boycott me and my ideas.
Congratulations, Ernest! Boycotts work. But are you certain you wouldn't prefer to vote or simply oppose me and urge others to do the same, rather than abandoning the playing field you opened? Wouldn't ignoring or boycotting me be doing nothing? Wouldn't it only show apathy on your part? If you don't respond, don't I automatically win? ROFLMAO
COMMENT #99 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 1:09 am PT...
An example of how boycotts work happened at Occupy San Diego. There were two groups which were ostensibly started to streamline the process, a Council and a GA Process Committee, but they ended up bogging down the process in interminable discussions of process until everyone was thoroughly exasperated. So people just stopped attending the Council and GA Process Committee meetings and both groups ceased to exist.
Similarly, if nobody but me responds to this discussion, I'll be talking to myself. I'll "win" the argument, but nobody will take me seriously. That's how an election boycott would work. If only 10% of the electorate voted, and the vote distribution was 30% for third parties, 30% for the Democratic Party, and 40% for the Republicans, the Republicans would "win," but with only 4% of the electorate nobody would take them seriously.
Refusing to participate in a worthless activity isn't apathy, it is prioritizing one's efforts. Worthwhile activities with a chance of accomplishing something should take precedent for anyone who wishes to get anything done.
Rick Halsey and many other Occupiers don't believe that voting to allow elected officials to make decisions is the best way to get things done--in fact many of us believe that system is the cause of every one of the OWS List of Grievances.
Once again, Ernest, I thank you for having taken me and my ideas seriously enough to merit specific inclusion in your article, and I thank you and Brad for allowing me to defend both myself and my ideas.
Newton's third law states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So the more one party struggles for power, the more the other party will struggle for power. As for third parties, in countries like Germany where they were able to gain power, it was accomplished by compromising, that is, by selling out on their principles and ideals. The more power they got, the more corrupt they became, until they were part of the problem rather than a solution to it. Political parties exist to gain power within a system, and power corrupts, so even the Green Party, which is opposed to centralized power, became corrupted by participating in systems of centralized power. You can't oppose corruption by becoming part of a corrupt system because rather than purifying the system, you become corrupted by it. At best, third party and independent candidates can remain powerless enough within a corrupt system not to be corrupted by it, but if they wish to gain power within a corrupt system, becoming corrupted is the price they have to pay.
Although Ernest seems to feel that I'm a frequent contributor to BradBlog, I don't think that I am. I'm a somewhat prolific writer and I usually post comments on several blogs every day. Some of them use the Disqus system which keeps track, and on those I've posted 370 comments which have gotten 1616 "likes" altogether, or an average of four per comment. Most systems don't keep track, but my comments usually do get responses, just as many of my Tweets get retweeted. But while I will occasionally post to blogs like this where most people are hostile toward me and my ideas, I don't do it very often because it tends to be a waste of time.
Ernest is boycotting me because he knows that it is more effective to ignore me than to continue to give me a forum here. I, however, am not responsible for the Occupy Wall Street List of Grievances. Elected officials, acting on behalf of the 1%, are responsible for every one of them. Elected officials deregulated the banks, elected officials subsidized corporations that outsourced jobs, elected officials pushed through the bailouts, elected officials started the wars, and elected officials, namely Democratic elected officials, refused to impeach Republicans Bush and Cheney for war crimes and Constitutional violations. Electing different officials won't restore power to the people, it will just create a slightly more benevolent tyranny for a while, until the 1% force them out of office and replace them with more obedient officials. Until people decide to boycott elected officials and the elections that give them the power to add more grievances to that already lengthy list, they'll continue to add to that list of grievances.
When there's a troll or a troublemaker at Occupy San Diego, the chant goes up, "Ignore them!" Having identified our grievances and located the source of them in elected officials, the best thing to do is to ignore those elected officials and the system they're part of, and work towards a direct democracy where we the people don't have to rely on others to represent our interests, but can act in our own interests.
We can't do both. You can't give a full power of attorney to somebody else and still retain the right to control your own finances. If the person you trusted to manage your affairs steals from you, the first thing you need to do is revoke that power of attorney and take charge of your own affairs. Appointing a different guardian means that you consider yourself incompetent to manage your own affairs and I don't know anyone who could do a worse job of managing our affairs than our elected officials have. It isn't their fault. Even the best believe that they have to have power in order to get anything done. In seeking power they become corrupted by it. You don't need power to get things done, you just need to ignore anyone seeking power and work at getting things done.
If the game is rigged, don't gamble in it and don't encourage others to do so. If it is the only game in town, invent a new game and make sure that it can't be rigged and that it doesn't require most people to lose so that a few can win. Occupy Wall Street, if it avoids participating in politics as usual, has the potential to be a whole new game--a game that isn't rigged and where everyone wins. I still harbor some optimism that it could happen, despite the billions the 1% will spend getting out the vote and the fact that some Occupies have already been co-opted. The potential still exists and cannot be ignored.
COMMENT #100 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 12/11/2011 @ 8:04 am PT...
Mark E. Smith @ various:
If you have written many times about ways to verify that the central tabulators tallied the votes accurately and weren't hacked or tampered with by insiders (in time to prevent an unelected candidate from being sworn into office), I apologize for missing all those articles.
One sign of a dishonest argument is the moving of the goal posts when called out. You have charged over and over again in this thread and many others that the "majority" of our elections are unverifiable, not that central tabulators may or may not have tallied the votes accurately.
Your elections in San Diego, run on almost 100% hand-marked paper ballots (exceptions for disabled voters who wish to vote on 100% unverifiable DREs) are perfectly verifiable, at least if you bother to try and do so, rather than incorrectly complain and misinform readers here that they can not be.
I have written many times about many processes that may be taken by citizens like yourself to verify and/or attempt to verify those verifiable elections. Among them: Work with election officials to develop hand-counted paper ballot pilot programs to move towards the full verification of your currently verifiable (though often unverified) elections; Make use of CA's liberal election contest provisions to demand hand-counts of any elections you like; Make use of public records laws to forensically audit and/or reconcile various aspects of the current tabulation system.
Of course, all of that (and more) is doable because election integrity advocates have fought for so long to ensure that folks like yourself would even be able to have a shot at verifying your elections in San Diego which had otherwise been scheduled (twice!) to become the fully unverifiable elections that you claim, inaccurately, they are now.
I have no evidence that any officials were fraudulently elected
Right. And yet you go on and on claiming that you do, claiming that I have "proven" that our elections are fraudulent, etc., and use that (and me) as the basis for why people should continue the current status quo by not voting and continuing to give their consent to the current corrupt system of government in this country.
if you think that ten years of election fraud didn't result in a single unelected candidate being sworn into office, why bother to work towards verifiable elections, since unverifiable elections have never resulted, to your knowledge, in a single unelected candidate being seated?
Why bother to dispute arguments that I haven't made?
Oh, because your own arguments are so weak, you've got to make up a bunch of them for me, so you can then argue, dishonestly, against them. I get it.
As to your repeated argument that elections are not worth voting in because Congress is the only one with powers to overturn a fraudulent election, your argument --- even if stipulated as accurate (a point I am not stipulating to) --- continues to support the unsupportable notion that elections to Congress are the only thing on any electoral ballot. There are no such things as elections for state and local elections or for ballot initiatives, or they are not important enough to vote in (for reasons unexplained in any of your indecipherable arguments), so those elections as well, even when perfectly verifiable, should not be voted in as well because, apparently, they are "unverifiable" and (alternately) "Congress" or the "Supreme Court" gets to determine who serves in office (apparently state and local offices as well) and what ballot initiatives may be enacted, not the people who vote for or against those state and local officials and ballot initiatives.
Again, your tiresome, unsupportable arguments in favor of the current status quo, aside from being poorly argued, are incredible stupid, ill-considered and really really boring as you head into your Nth year of frequently arguing them here.
Like Ernie, I look forward to being done responding --- over and over and over again --- to the same arguments you make --- over and over and over again --- in favor of our current, horrible, electoral system.
COMMENT #101 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/11/2011 @ 9:23 am PT...
It's sad, Brad, that when one disagrees with the "tiresome, unsupportable" arguments of either of the Marks, honest intellectual disagreement is conflated by the likes of Mark Tucker @25 into "smarmy ad hominems."
Tucker, when faced with a direct challenge to his ill-conceived notion that language must be constricted to, as you aptly put it, "it's most archaically defined etymology," retreated to his private email series. There he posted a meandering, incoherent rant about how unfairly we've treated him --- knowing that, unlike The BRAD BLOG with its democratic comment section, Tucker's one-sided emails cannot be contradicted.
Mark E. Smith, on the other hand, simply insists on having the last word. It is thus likely that your comment @100 will trigger another from him.
With rare exceptions (see comment #97), Smith lacks the intellectual integrity to acknowledge error. Instead, he moves to goalposts by erecting straw men arguments that you and I never made, and proceeds to knock them down.
I've not only stopped responding to Smith's rants, I've decided to stop reading them. I'd respectfully suggest that you and anyone else whose grown tired of Smith's mumblings do the same.
At some point, at least on this thread, even Mark E. Smith will come to realize that he is his only audience.
COMMENT #102 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/11/2011 @ 10:19 am PT...
Mark E Smith--
I'm not sure you and I are inhabiting the same planet.
In your world at some certain low voter participation the "winners" would be exposed, like the Wizard of Oz with the curtain pulled back, and power would be returned to the people. The prevailing intolerable system would be dismantled?, evaporate?, because "nobody would take them seriously?" It's unclear, because you never explain how your prescription would play out in reality. You merely insist repeatedly and with attitude that it would, so everyone should stop doing whatever they're doing if it's at odds with your unexplained crystal ball version of reality/the future.
In my world, for starters, most people ALREADY don't take the people in charge seriously. People of all political stripes think our elected officials(with a few noteworthy exceptions) are a joke. This does not seem to deter the powers that be in the slightest. They don't seem to realize and/or don't care that people disagree with them(except, of course, to some degree, in regards to how much it might affect their election/re-election prospects). They've got the money, the establishment media, and inordinate control of government.
In my world this status quo is, in part, enabled by low citizen participation in elections. That's why Paul Weyrich and his minions prioritize efforts to lower and lower and lower some more cuz it can never be too low voter turnout. Low voter turnout for them is seen as an indispensable key to maintaining everything about the system you decry, to keep it up and running smoothly, because most people do not agree with their agenda and they know it(somewhere).
For all your words you never address this reality.
COMMENT #103 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 12:20 pm PT...
Brad, the misunderstanding here is that you are talking about whether or not the individual votes are verifiable, whereas I am talking about whether the vote count is verifiable.
As Stalin said, it didn't matter how people in the USSR voted, it only mattered who counted the votes. People who voted in Stalinist elections may have been able to verify their votes, but they were not able to verify the vote count. That is the same situation here.
Ernest is correct that attacks on me are likely to trigger a response from me, but unlike Ernest, I haven't stated three times, or even once, that I would no longer respond in this forum. In fact, I reserve the right to respond each and every time that I and/or my ideas are attacked, although I choose not to respond to ad hominem attacks on that same irrational level, and prefer to respond to them by continuing to discuss the issues rather than the persons making such attacks.
David, only those who take the people in charge seriously, continue to vote in their elections and think those elections are important.
In my most recent comment on Occupy Cafe, I enumerate how elected officials are responsible for every single one of the Occupy Wall Street List of Grievances, and suggest that it might be a good idea to no longer entrust our future, our posterity's future, and the future of our planet, if it still has one, to elected representatives.
Representative "democracy" is not the direct democracy which is the basis for the Occupy Wall Street movement, and trying to elect less evil representatives is merely an attempt to change the players, not an attempt to change the system.
COMMENT #104 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 1:08 pm PT...
An example of the misunderstanding between Brad and myself is an incident where he had difficulty casting his vote. He sought assistance and was eventually able to ensure that his vote was cast in the way he intended.
I pointed out that since the votes would be counted by central tabulators, he could not verify that his vote would be counted as cast. He was able to verify that it was cast the way he intended, but not that it would be counted the way he intended.
COMMENT #105 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/11/2011 @ 2:28 pm PT...
Mark E Smith--
1. When you say--"..only those who take the people in charge seriously, continue to vote in their elections and think those elections are important."--you are again assigning motive to many, many people, as you've being doing repeatedly here, that you can not possibly know.
You are also seriously not paying attention to what has been said here in this thread. I have clearly stated that I do not take the people in charge seriously. I do not have great faith in election outcomes or elected officials(again, with a few noteworthy exceptions). But for reasons that Brad, Ernie, and others have clearly articulated here I believe there are good reasons to vote. Especially now, in this new climate of possibilities. It's hard to understand how you can not get all that if you've actually being reading what I've written. Yet you again lecture me with,"David, only those who take the people in charge seriously, continue to vote in their elections and think those elections are important."
Since you don't respond to what has been said to you or respond by contorting what has been said beyond recognition, it's very difficult to have meaningful dialogue with you.
2. Yet, again, you have not answered the point about the confluence of your don't vote plan with Paul Weyrich's suppress the vote plan and exactly how the hell it would play out in reality to realize any of the culture/system changing effects you advocate.
3. The way I read your comments and Brad's responses there is not the misunderstanding between him and you that you claim there is in #103 and #104. The misunderstanding is between you and you.
COMMENT #106 [Permalink]
...
Brad Friedman
said on 12/11/2011 @ 3:01 pm PT...
Mark E. Smith said @ 104:
An example of the misunderstanding between Brad and myself
There is no misunderstanding between us. At least not on my part.
David Lasagna @ 105
In re: Your #2 point to Mark Smith in that comment. He's unlikely to speak to your request for an explanation between how his plan and the loathsome vote suppressor Weyrich's plans are different, at least not in any coherent way (you may expect a long ramble of word salad instead, however, now that you've insisted on a reply). The fact is, his plan and Weyrich's hope (to keep people from voting) have the same end result, which is why Mark has been advocating for the current status quo in elections for some 100 comments now: He would like the majority of Americans to not vote at all, just as they are already doing (or not doing, as the case may be.)
COMMENT #107 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 3:45 pm PT...
Brad, when I say that US elections are more than 90% unverifiable, the elections are unverifiable, not that the votes are unverifiable. I am referring to the fact that votes which are counted by central tabulators which are not verifiable, result in unverifiable election results, even if every individual vote was verified to have been cast as intended. When you say that elections are verifiable, you mean that votes are verifiable, not that the way that the votes are counted by the central tabulators is verifiable.
While votes may be verifiable, unless the way that those votes are counted is also verifiable, the election itself is not verifiable, only the votes.
Again, verifying that your vote was cast in the way that you intended, does not verify that it was counted in the way that you intended. You still haven't supplied a link to anywhere you explain how central tabulators could be verified in time to prevent fraudulently elected candidates from being sworn into office. I don't believe that such a link exists, but you can prove me wrong by supplying it. Millions of election integrity activists would be grateful if you can tell them how to verify that central tabulators counted the votes accurately.
David, I have given many explanations repeatedly as to why it is not a good idea to vote for particular issues or candidates, no matter how worthy they may be. One of those many reasons is that voting legitimizes the system which is committing crimes against humanity in our name, and I don't know of any issue or candidate that is worth legitimizing a system that commits crimes against humanity in my name.
As for how my election boycott advocacy differs from some right-wing plan to suppress some votes, their plan is to only suppress some votes, so that the system will still have enough legitimacy to be able to claim to be democratically elected with the consent of the governed, but to have even more right wingers within that government. My suggestion (it is not a plan, just a suggestion, and I do not have money or paid operatives to implement a plan the way that political operatives do, is to delegitimize the government entirely, so as not to consent to allow politicians of any stripe, whether far evil or lesser evil, to commit war crimes in our name.
But I have many more reasons for not entrusting decisions to elected representatives, which I'll post in my next comment.
COMMENT #108 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 3:53 pm PT...
It was elected representatives who allowed banks to have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
It was elected representatives who gave bailouts from taxpayers to banks, which the banks then took with impunity, and used to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
It was elected representatives who, by failing to enact legislation to protect our rights, have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
It was elected representatives who, by failing to enact legislation to protect our food and by giving subsidies to big agra, have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
It was elected representatives who allowed universities, corpororations, and the military to profit off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
It is elected representatives who have allowed corporations to continuously seek to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
It is elected reprresentatives whose laws have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
It is elected representatives who passed trade deals which allowed corporations to outsource labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay, and was elected representatives who used taxpayer money to subsidize corporations which did so.
It was elected representatives who appointed the Supreme Court justtices who gave corporations the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
It is elected representatives who allow corporations to spend millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
It is elected reprresentatives who allowed corporations to sell our privacy as a commodity.
It is elected representatives who have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
It is elected representatives who deliberately declined to enact legislation forcing corporations to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
It is elected representatives who determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
It is elected reprresentatives who have accepted large sums of money from the corporations they are supposed to regulate.
It is elected representatives who continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
It is elected representatives who allow corporations to continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
It is elected representatives who allowed corporations to cover up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit, and who then turned around and awarded those same corporations new permits and contracts.
It is elected representatives who allowed a few big corporations to own and control the mass media and to purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
It is elected representatives who gave mercenary corporations private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
It is elected representatives who have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
It is elected representatives who ordered the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
It is elected representatives who give corporations contracts to continue to create weapons of mass destruction.
The list is not inclusive, but it is lengthy and serious enough to give pause to those who still believe that we should continue to entrust our future, posterity's future, and the future of the planet, if it still has one, to elected representatives.
Attempting to elect some less evil representatives is not systemic change, it is trying to change the players, not trying to change the system. Nor is attempting to elect less evil representatives in the spirit of direct democracy of Occupy Wall Street.
COMMENT #109 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/11/2011 @ 5:00 pm PT...
re #108
That is the longest most broken record non-answer to explicit questions I think I've ever seen.
It also makes me think the actual meaning of the questions is not getting through.
You address nothing. Intolerably long answers to questions that have not been asked and that assiduously avoid questions that have been asked do not cut it.
If you provide even longer lists of more of the above, it will still not count as an answer.
re #107
That you somehow think you're explaining something to Brad Friedman in #107 about voting that he either doesn't know or regarding which he misspoke here is so beyond the pale I don't know what to tell you.
COMMENT #110 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/11/2011 @ 5:48 pm PT...
Re Brad @106 & David @109.
Please! Stop responding to Mark E. Smith's disingenuous rants. You'll only encourage him to post another, and another, and another.
COMMENT #111 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 12/11/2011 @ 6:42 pm PT...
Well, I hope we've all learned an invaluable lesson here. Engaging Mark E. Smith as IF we are having a rational debate - is moot.
Always has been. Always will be.
This guy is all output, and no input.
All hat and no cattle.
His obfuscations, his distractions, his ill-conceived rants; his weirdo alliance to the status quo vis-a-vis arguing for a NON-PARTICIPATORY "direct democracy" (???) is not grounded in reality (as our Lasagna points out in post after post.) Mark E NOT ONLY has no end game or potential result for this terrible idea that he can't stop honking on mightily about (at least one that he can explain or support) but he also has the unmitigated nerve to charge those of us trying to FIX the broken system with being "party drones" or "plants", casting pre-determined intent and affiliations where there are none.
Mark would, and does, ascribe the FAILURE of our voting system to the very folks working around the clock - at great personal expense - to DO something about it all.
Mark E. makes his arguments up out of whole cloth,
yammers away about it all as if it's a relevant response to our inquiries (never is) and continues to bang his banged out, banged up drum that will only continue to serve the very people and system he claims to be opposing.
I was, frankly, disappointed that Ernie merged his nonsense with a article about Occupy - only lends him more credence, as he has been quick to point out.
And yes, I stopped reading Mark E.'s posts here years ago, after another thread much like this one.
And Mark E. - post all you want. I enjoy watching you self-destruct. You do it every time. No need for me (or Ernest, or Brad, or Sark, or Lasagna) to post anything at all to refute you - you glow infrared silly.
...and fwiw, I think you owe an apology to SARK for your mean-spirited, uninformed, and mis-placed RAPE analogy.
But I doubt even that will land on you.
You miss everything.
COMMENT #112 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/11/2011 @ 6:57 pm PT...
Glad that SARK took screenshots, glad Mark made no sense again and again in post after post, THRILLED to hear Mark E. was "vetted" through occupySD and our delicious occupy process - tho' I'm sure he has any number of obfuscations on that front to explain - none of them grounded in reality; and I don't know for sure but I feel somehow certain that his ousting was NOT from mostly from "democrats trying to co-opt OCCUPY".
(FWIW, there ARE democrats trying to co-opt occupy, but they are not succeeding. In fact, I have good info that would indicate we are CO-OPTING THEM! Link upon request - HUGE fall out between occupy and SEIU this week!)
But Mark E. will be Mark E...
and he will find all kinds of wordy ways to self-destruct - as he has demonstrated in this very thread. This is Mark E.'s sad, sad legacy.
I would like to take this opportunity to applaud Brad's / Ernest's "OPEN AND DEMORCATIC POSTING FORUM" as a fine example of how our GA vetting process works. Windbags are 100% transparent as wind-bags...they can be spotted from outer-space.
For everyone here at THE BRAD BLOG who doesn't attend occupy GA's - this long winded and frustrating thread is a PRIME EXAMPLE of how our process works.
Yes, it's slow. Yes, we all *tried* to communicate and have an open dialogue with Mark E. Didn't pan out - so now, as a community, we know it's time to IGNORE HIM. He has negated himself via the open process.
Beauty, too! Cuz he did it to HIMSELF.
'Course, here at The Brad Blog - we all use that same system of occupy self-vetting, and have for years, to determine our collective.
Brad was #occupy before #occupy was cool...
xoxox! Off to our occupyLA GA! Will send your collective love to all!
COMMENT #113 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/11/2011 @ 7:06 pm PT...
I would like to make a "friendly amendment" at this time - everyone reading this (and GOD BLESS U if you still are) should join our collective forum at http://occupycafe.org/ - this is where Mark E. is trying to make a name for himself in the occupy movement - which won't happen based on his track record...
Still, every BradBlog reader should join the interoccupy sites, and WEIGH IN on OCCUPY PHASE 2 as OCCUPYING the 2012 ELECTIONS as I have outlined in above posts (and NO ONE has responded to, to my chagrin, thanks to MARK E. eating up the thread.)
I have a plan...
I can override the Mark E. Smiths of the world with ONE PUSH OF A SMART PHONE BUTTON, and BROADCAST myself monitoring - and OCCUPYING - our elections...
hoping that will be included in an upcoming BradBlog article and given the same weight / voice our detractors like Mark E. have been given (without due) in this article.
mad love to all.
jd
...beware the hecklers, my bb tribe. We pay FAR too much attention to them, here.
COMMENT #114 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/11/2011 @ 7:11 pm PT...
Another site everyone here should be aware of, and be participating in - from our pal Robert Steele who is trying to effectively merge occupy and EI, just like me:
http://agreater.us/billpage.php?id=128
Wow, would it EVER be GREAT if everyone who just gave Mark E. all that time and energy would do the same for the GOOD PEOPLE on the front lines of this fight - and who are already effectively making progress.
...that would make me so very very happy.
Might even do a jig if that were to happen.
ENOUGH of Mark E. Let's redirect our focus towards better, more effective ends - and BETTER, MORE EFFECTIVE PEOPLE.
COMMENT #115 [Permalink]
...
Jeannie Dean
said on 12/11/2011 @ 8:11 pm PT...
My last post in an attempt to TAKE BACK this forum / thread from the ridiculous MARK E. SMITH:
http://www.occupycafe.or...2606&page=6#comments
For all who now know that Mark's arguments are silly and strange, PLEASE REFUTE THEM at the above link to OCCUPYCAFE.ORG, where he is being his usually silly self.
As OCCUPY gives a voice to all it's members, I'm not at all opposed to Mark being given a platform within our movement...that is the GLORIOUS thing about the OCCUPY process.
So now, after all Mark's unfounded and frustrating HOOEY - Brad TRIBE - PLEASE participate in the OCCUPY PROCESS, lend your voice to the debate / platform Mark E. has now been given on TWO major sites, both here (where he has been vetted) and at the OCCUPY SITE - where he has NOT been properly vetted.
My Lasagna especially - LOVE your responses to Mark E. here! Can you join the above site (takes a day or so to get "approved") and then just copy and paste your responses here?
OMG - that would be PERFECT.
Ernie - you should do the same.
I think SARK is already on it...
I'm sure Mark E. will continue to flood this thread with inadequate, even sad responses...I will continue to do the same. I can play, Mark E....just like you. Keep up the bad work! Only helps occupy and US!
ps...I have alerted all my FB WI peeps, and my OCCUPYLA peeps to your post. Should get interesting...
COMMENT #116 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 9:37 pm PT...
Here's another person you might wish to ridicule and denigrate:
With Peace in Our Hearts and Power in Our Hands by Randall Amster
Amster's essay was republised on Truthout where mine was the only one of 70 comments to agree with him. I stated that "All other forms of noncompliance are futile if you continue to delegate to government the authority, power, and consent to treat you like a terrorist for engaging in them."
Here's his bio:
Randall Amster, J.D., Ph.D., is the Graduate Chair of Humanities at Prescott College. He serves as Executive Director of the Peace & Justice Studies Association and as Contributing Editor for New Clear Vision. Among his recent books are Lost in Space: The Criminalization, Globalization, and Urban Ecology of Homelessness (LFB Scholarly, 2008), and the co-edited volume Building Cultures of Peace: Transdisciplinary Voices of Hope and Action (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2009).
COMMENT #117 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/11/2011 @ 9:38 pm PT...
Hey Jeannie Dean,
I started the sign up process for the OccupyCafe and went over to take a look. There was just so much more stuff there from Mr. Smith I couldn't take it. I try to read comments thoroughly, so I can respond coherently. I sorta naturally reached the end of my wad with this guy on this thread. Maybe another time.
love,
Dave
COMMENT #118 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/11/2011 @ 9:58 pm PT...
ps. Mark E Smith reminds me of sort of an anarchist version of my Tea Party relatives.
Closed loop. Ideas contrary to his belief system don't seem to be able to be processed.
COMMENT #119 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/11/2011 @ 11:55 pm PT...
Victoria Collier was already registered at Occupy Cafe and has responded to Jeannie's call to post there. I'm sure that others will follow. Despite the best attempts of all five of you to try to prevent me from having the last word here, this topic seems to be dying, while my topic on Occupy Cafe hadn't had a comment in weeks.
So once again I have to thank you for continuing to draw people's attention to me and my ideas, even though you don't consider either worthy of your own attention. It is just another of many examples of you saying one thing and doing another.
While not all PR is good PR, any PR at all is better than no PR, so thanks again.
COMMENT #120 [Permalink]
...
David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 7:50 am PT...
Is the game to prevent you from having the last word?
COMMENT #121 [Permalink]
...
David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 9:44 am PT...
comment I just left at the OccupyCafe--
I came over here to pose a question to Mark E Smith and anyone else who might be interested. In the last week I've been one of several participants(including Mark E Smith) in a comment thread at Bradblog about voting/not voting. I try to read carefully when I engage with another commenter. I strive to be precise and coherent. I'm interested in dialogue and differing views.
So here's the thing--in comment #54 of the comment thread to a piece entitled--Occupy Electoral Politics-(guest blogged by Ernest Canning 12/7/11)--Mark says he's 71 years old. When I read that days ago it helped create an image of this guy who was writing so much, so adamantly, and to my mind rather strangely about not voting. Then I happened over here last night and saw an actual picture of Mark. These pictures here are small but Mark E Smith looks so very much NOT like a seventy-one year old. So I was wondering what's up with that?
Also, at the beginning of that comment #54 Mark thanks commenter Eli @49 for a Pete Seegar reference. This is a little odd cuz Eli @49 never said anything about Pete Seegar. He did mention a book by Peter Singer. Mistakes happen, but it really seemed like Mark wasn't paying particular attention to what was being written to him, and as I'd had that experience myself repeatedly with him, and then there was this claim of his being 71, I began to wonder who Mark is and what he was about.
Right after claiming to be 71 years old Mark wrote that he's spent a lot of time living in places like Mexico, Honduras, and Afghanistan. Maybe he has. But after the unusual interaction with him at Bradblog and then seeing his picture over here it's hard not to wonder if he's not just making random stuff up.
Anyhoo, I wanted to drop in and mention this stuff cuz it seemed odd, as did trying to have a meaningful dialogue with him. So, Mark, who are you? You look like you could be in your twenties, thirties, or possibly a young forty. As I said the picture is little. You sure don't look 71. How old are you? Are you really 71? If you're 71 why this very young picture? If this picture is current why are you saying you're 71? Did you really live in all those places? Who are you? What's going on, dude?
COMMENT #122 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 12:47 pm PT...
Jeannie,
Victoria Collier is kicking some serious ass over there! She's formidable!! I love her!!!
Dave
COMMENT #123 [Permalink]
...
David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 12:58 pm PT...
Have to repost this bit of brilliance from Victoria Collier over at OccupyCafe. First she deconstructed Mark E Smith thoroughly in a nice detailed post. She can really write. Then she asked for these specifics. How brilliant is this?!!
Reply by Victoria Collier 23 minutes ago
Here's how I think this should probably go. People like you, Mark, who advocate for a radical change of the system, need to provide a full and detailed plan of development. It's not enough to say "direct democracy" and "power to the people." We need to see exactly how this plays out in reality.
So please, furnish us with these answers, here and now.
Explain how this works on the local, state and Federal levels, nationally and internationally.
* Do we have legislation, and if so, who writes it and who vets it and who votes on it?
* How do they vote? Exactly what systems do we use to cast and count our votes?
* Does government cease to exist? On all levels or just Federal, or just State?
* Do we have a standing army? Who decides that?
* Who makes the rules of commerce? Interstate commerce? International trade?
* How do you avoid all the problems of mob rule? What happens, for instance, if religious fanatics in Kansas who have been home schooling their children begin to outnumber everyone else in about 2050 and vote to institute public burnings of heretics?
* How do we interact with other countries who have representatives? With the U.N.?
* Do we have taxes? If not, how do we pay for public works? If we do, who decides the budget?
* Do we have an energy policy? If so, who decides it?
* Do we have corporations? If so, who regulates them?
I think those are enough questions to start. I truly eagerly await the answers.
COMMENT #124 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/12/2011 @ 1:35 pm PT...
My dear David Lasagna.
Here's the way I see it. Mark E. Smith has zero credibility here, or elsewhere.
If people over at Occupy Cafe want to waste more time "debating" his half-baked, boycott elections idea, that is their democratic right.
But to import that here is to flog a dead horse.
I sincerely believe it long past the time for readers at The BRAD BLOG to put this thread to bed.
COMMENT #125 [Permalink]
...
Marion Delgado
said on 12/12/2011 @ 1:43 pm PT...
Bradster, I think it's awesome this is a place where people are comfortable making their arguments in full. This will be a very much cited post by me and maybe half the reason is the comments.
MD from Fairbanks
PS no word back from anyone i've contacted back home re radio.
COMMENT #126 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 1:57 pm PT...
Sorry, Ernie. I won't bug you anymore here. You know me, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, find out where they're coming from, and offer a bridge if possible. Sometimes it's not. I was also just trying to tidy up a little. You know how it is when people spew nonsense.
love,
Dave
COMMENT #127 [Permalink]
...
Mark E. Smith
said on 12/12/2011 @ 3:10 pm PT...
"David Lasagna" did post some disruptive comments at Occupy Cafe, totally off-topic, devoid of content, and consisting of nothing more than personal attacks on me.
But then that's been the level of discussion consistently here.
Unable to refute my arguments, "David Lasagna" is now questioning my name, my age, and my personal history. Obviously he doesn't judge arguments on their own merits, but by the name, age, past history, and perhaps skin color and sexual orientation of the person making such arguments.
Is that how all you self-styled "liberals" and "progressives" judge things?
It is obvious from the few on-topic responses that have been made either here or on Occupy Cafe by BradBloggers, that you are unanimously opposed to direct democracy and prefer "representative" government. You are entitled to your preferences, but I am also entitled to mine and I happen to prefer direct democracy to plutocracy, oligarchy, and corporate rule.
I am working to bring about change, but those who prefer the current system are opposed to change. Eventually, either they will prevail and the Occupy Movement will fail, or the Occupy Movement will recognize them for the agents of the status quo that they are and they'll lose all credibility within the Occupy Movement.
The real problem is that representative government, as I enumerated above, is responsible for every single item in the OWS List of Grievances, and left in power will destroy even its adherents and supporters.
My basic argument is that voters, those who consent to be governed by a destructive system that will eventually destroy them and our entire planet for profit, are complicit in that destruction--even complicit in their own destruction. They may wish for a few reforms or a few more benevolent tyrants, but they are not opposed to the present system--a tyranny which doesn't even pretend to be representing the interests of the 99%, which has wrecked many economies including our own, destroyed millions of innocent lives, and has led to the current global uprisings called the Occupy Wall Street Movement.
COMMENT #128 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 3:30 pm PT...
How dare you put quotes around my name?!!!!
COMMENT #129 [Permalink]
...
David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 3:32 pm PT...
Ad hominem quotes!!!Never been so insulted!!!!
COMMENT #130 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 12/12/2011 @ 4:18 pm PT...
Lawrence Weschler, in Time to Start Preoccupying Wall Street, argues that the next stage for the Occupy movement should entail the enlistment of progressive economists to aid in the formulation of a set of demands that would alleviate the debt crisis with respect to student loans and mortgages that are now underwater.
That demand must be backed by a date-certain deadline --- Weschler proposes October 2012 in the midst of the upcoming election --- at which time all debtors will simultaneously stop all further debt payments --- a debt strike!
Weschler also adds a criticism of the consensus process that will no doubt grate on my dear friend Jeannie Dean, but one which she, and other occupiers, ought to objectively evaluate:
[T]he remarkable upwelling of a radically participatory form of democracy within the camps themselves, no matter how bracing and potentially valuable in the long run, [need not] in itself be fetishized as the point of the exercise...[T]he Occupiers...are going to need to find a way of reaching out to constituencies well beyond their original cohort, including millions of fellow citizens who, while they may not have the time or the current life situation or the disposition to be able to join the die-hards in encampments, would nevertheless love to be offered some concrete way into the movement, a practical means of expressing their anger and frustration...
That is another way of saying what I tried to say in this article. The consensus process is a marvelous tool within the confines of the close knit Occupy encampments, and GAs, but it is virtually impossible to engage in that same process on a mass scale amongst millions of people throughout this vast nation.
The only rationale form of democracy at the national level is "representative" democracy, and genuine "representative" democracy can be achieved only when those elected to public office truly represent the interests of the ordinary citizens who have flocked to the burgeoning Occupy movement.
COMMENT #131 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 5:37 pm PT...
I don't know for sure, Ernie, but it sounds to me that at least some of the movement may already be hip to and acting on your concerns here. My unsolicited suggestion would be, patience.
COMMENT #132 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/12/2011 @ 6:55 pm PT...
Since both Ernie and David are still posting here, I'll take this opportunity to repost my response to Victoria's suggestion that David stop responding to me on Occupy Cafe:
Excellent suggestion, Victoria. But if people stop responding to me, isn't there the clear and imminent danger that someobody, somewhere, might be convinced by my arguments and stop voting in sham elections for people they can't hold accountable?
Wouldn't the entire universe collapse if that happened?
Are you going to be so irresponsible as to allow that possibility without fighting tooth and nail against it until your last breath?
It is clearly the most dangerous idea in the entire spectrum of noncompliance, as nothing else has drawn such heated and organized attacks.
It is clearly what the corporations, and the current system which they control, fear the most.
It is clearly a concept so potentially destabilizing, that even if it had been put forth by a dyslexic 17-year-old, you would still feel it necessary to attack him.
It is, in fact, the most destabilizing concept in the entire Occupy Movement and therefore the one most likely to bring about change. That's why the various political parties are putting so much time and effort into co-opting the movement in support of the old electoral system, the system so stable that it got us into this whole mess in the first place.
Funny, I've been an election boycott advocate for five years now, but the level of animosity against me has never been this concentrated. That is because up until the Occupy Movement, very few people took me seriously. Now that more and more people are considering abandoning the old system of electing representatives, and building a direct democracy instead, my wiritings are gaining much more attention.
Since you say that you have more important things to do, people might think that you and your friends will therefore stop participating in this discussion. But anyone who understands that boycotting elections is a much greater threat to the system than any other of the many ideas in the entire spectrum of Occupy concepts, can predict that you cannot and you won't. You may state your intention to walk away several times, as Ernest did on BradBlog, but since your primary activity in life is getting out the vote to legitimize the system (under the pretext of perhaps obtaining minor reforms, a few less evil officials, or similar bandaids), you cannot walk way. Your political parties won't allow you to do that for fear that they might lose a voter.
I'm sure that you've read, Deliver the Vote: A History of Election Fraud, an American Political Tradition--1742-2004, by Tracy Campbell. The job of those who support the system is to deliver the vote, to grant it legitimacy through the consent of the governed. Even when those who are attacking me see that all they are doing is drawing more attention to my ideas, they can't stop because their job is to deliver the vote and my idea is to prevent them from delivering the vote to the 1%.
But if you really can walk away, I'm sure that others will be sent to take your place. Ideas less dangerous to the system can be tolerated, but this isn't one of those basically harmless ideas. This is a proven, nonviolent way to delegitimize a system that hasn't merited and therefore doesn't deserve any legitimacy. It is a way for the governed to stop granting their consent and, thereby, stop being governed and become free people.
It is the most exciting idea since the advent of patriarchy, thousands of years ago, when organized governments began to rule by force, eventually allowing some people to have certain privileges and pretending to be democracies, even though it was those who retained the sole legitimate use of violence who continued to rule by using that violence to suppress dissent.
It is the most revolutionary idea to hit this country since the Declaration of Independence, and has the potential to undo all the damage done by the counterrevolutionary Constitution that betrayed the Founders, who had shed blood to defend the self-evident truth that all men [sic] are created equal, and declared their government a "republic" by simply stating that blacks were only 3/5 people and therefore hadn't been created equal. That was treason to democracy and we've been suffering under that treachery ever since. Some of us think it is time to revert to self-evident truths once more.
We want an egalitarian society where even those driven to drink or drugs or religion by having their jobs outsourced, the homes illegally foreclosed, and their hopes for a better future trampled upon by smiling politicos, have a voice in government and their human dignity restored. We want an egalitarian society where even those whose minds were destroyed by having been sent to commit crimes against humanity on behalf of corporate profits, can have a voice in government and their human dignity restored.
We may be few in number, but we're the most dangerous people in the Occupy Movement and those who support the status quo will never allow you to ignore us.
Good luck to you also.
COMMENT #133 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 12/12/2011 @ 7:23 pm PT...
COMMENT #134 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 12/13/2011 @ 2:19 am PT...
Yes - putting this thread to bed would be a VERY good idea, but so much IMPORTANT debate still being waged irrespective of Mark E.'s incoherent ramblings.
Why let him spoil the party? That said, I suggest we start another thread on this subject since it has been so run off the rails (tho' I LOVE that Marion D. has found this even REMOTELY worthwhile):
My wonderful David L writes to my dear Ernest:
"I don't know for sure, Ernie, but it sounds to me that at least some of the movement may already be hip to and acting on your concerns here. My unsolicited suggestion would be, patience."
Perfectly put. I love you.
Ernest - we're on it.
Really.
Trust.
Faith.
Less spankings.
More research.
We've been a month ahead of your reporting...
Your predictions and criticisms are MUCH needed and deeply appreciated; they only grate me because they are usually missing large chunks of info that you can't know unless you READ US.
Begging you all to simply. watch. us. instead of watching the MSM media watch us.
You can follow some of the inter-occupy (yes, INTER-OCCUPY) sites - the occupycafe is a good place to start - or, just check us out daily at
occupylosangeles.org
Will be a HUGE time saver for our future dialogue.
xoxox!
(Yes, David L - that Victoria Collier is THE Victoria Collier! Daughter and niece of JAMES AND KENNETH COLLIER - hero EI Greats and authors of 'VOTESCAM'...
I met her through my work in WI, and I can tell you that she is one of my nearest, dearest, closest, girl-crushes I've had in years.
What a pepper-pot she is!
COMMENT #135 [Permalink]
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Mark E. Smith
said on 12/13/2011 @ 3:20 am PT...
Ah yes, much more important ideas, like saluting the flag, voting, and demonstrating one's patriotism to a government engaged in five wars of aggression and committing genocide and crimes against humanity.
Just ignore the lunatics who think that governments which commit war crimes are are already fascist, not just in danger of becoming fascist. And anyway, without fascism, there could be chaos.
Don't discuss the Occupy Wall Street List of Grievances which prove conclusively that representative government has become destructive of our safety and happiness, and that according to the Declaration of Indpendence, it is not merely our right, but our duty to alter or abolish it. And anyway, surely we can alter it by changing a few elected officials or passing a few Constitutional Amendments. So what if the government continues to commit war crimes--they're only brown people, not real human beings.
Besides, everybody except me knows that an election boycott wouldn't work. Of course they also know that elections don't work, but that doesn't stop them from voting. So the economy continues to get worse, so more banks are bailed out and more people get sold out, so what? Everything's working, right? And those who aren't working are just lazy bums who don't want to work.
Yes, there are much more important things to discuss than the fact that the government is committing crimes against humanity. That's not important. Nor is it important that most citizens don't want the wars to continue but don't have a voice in the matter, only a sometimes counted vote for people who will make that decision based on how much profit it will bring to their big donors.
Oh yes, and there are protests to talk about, like the Port shutdown. And the people arrested by the law enforcement agencies of the government you vote for. People who want change so badly that they'll continue to vote for the government that is brutalizing them to prevent change.
So what? As long as they vote to grant the government their consent of the governed to bash their heads in, their defiant protests against the government they voted for is much more important than the fact that they are voting for their own oppression. And they're not really voting for their own oppression, they're voting for local candidates, civil rights, and only unimportantly and incidentally to grant the government the right to bash their heads in.
Not important at all. So trivial and unworthy of discussion that this may end up being the longest thread in the history of BradBlog.
And I'll keep Tweeting it so maybe Brad can get a few new readers or even sell a book or two, maybe even get a donation. Out of every hundred people who think that it isn't important that we have a fascist government engaged in crimes against humanity as long as we vote, there might be one who thinks otherwise. If you're that one, check out some of my articles on http://fubarandgrill.org