Eugene Forsey Liberal

Monday, March 01, 2010

Totters Kill Cdn Troops

A Totter commenter, has inspired me to engage in some public education about how TOT has Canadian soldiers' blood on its hands, like all parties, re. their complicity in extending Afghan mission by voting with Cons, against Bloc & Libs, in 2007. It seems necessary, as chap may be representative of general ignorance (though Totters are zombies, so what should I have expected?) My position has been consistent. Not others. It's a sad day when a Liberal has to educate Totters about their own party, but there you are, that's Totter zombies for you. So I repeat:

TOT no longer favours withdrawal from NATO, as it once did (though Broadbent said that was BS and he never believed in it himself, and only kept it on the books to keep crazies happy). NATO members are required to give 6 month MINIMUM notice of withdrawal. At time of vote, the earliest the mission could have been effectively ended, given the Govt of Canada commitment, with support of HoC, however misguided, was Feb 2009. Unless Canada was to simply withdraw "immediately", however impossible that was in fact, logistically, and were the Govt of Canada to do so, it would have quit NATO. So even under the "immediate withdrawal" BS argument, it would have required a Govt that was willing to quit NATO, which, as I repeat, is not TOT position nowadays. And TOT was not about to become Govt. And even in the most optimistic scenario you can imagine, an immediate election, somehow, which is two months, and then new government in place, and in effect, a withdrawal ASAP, which would really have taken more than six months, one still ends very close to Feb 2009, if not Feb 2009. Unless TOT could a) form government, and b) willing to lead Canada out of NATO, on the spot, the former impossible, the latter contrary to current TOT doctrine.

And what irritates me about having to write this is that I know, for a fact, like everyone who was paying attention, that TOT caucus was divided on question, many wanted to be responsible and vote with Bloc & Libs to stop mission in 2009. But leadership and others put Cdn lives behind their perceived political interest in trying to differentiate themselves from Libs, always their overriding obsession. And so every death after Feb 2009 is as much on TOT hands as anyone's.

I have criticised the Libs all the way through. But for a brief moment, when Dion had most control over his caucus, he was able to whip them to support a Feb 2009 withdrawal. And Bloc agreed. And TOT voted with Cons, and condemned our soldiers to death, post Feb 2009. And their supporters seem incapable of coming to terms with this knavery. But they did, it's right there, and every clued-in Canadian knew it then and knows it now.

Every TOT insider knows this. That's why they mumble and shuffle their feet and run away when you try to pin them down on it. It was absolutely shameful, like all the parties' behaviour. But if you are incapable of coming to terms with this, if you are so partisan that you can't bring yourself to criticise your own party, even in matters of life and death, then there's really no point in trying to converse with you, since you too are a Totter zombie. You are too emotionally invested in the TOT to be capable of decent discourse. But ask yourself, why did Bloc vote in favour? Did they love Dion? The Libs? Are they evil triangulating war-mongers? Don't be such a fool. Wake and smell the coffee. TOT, like all parties, has blood on its hands. And for what? Domestic political considerations. Sick.

If, after having been confronted with this info, and links, anti-war Totters still won't criticise TOT, and stick to blind partisanship, then I have to admit I'll probably delete their comments, as they won't be worth the time spent in response. Pity.

And remember, I have been consistent in my position, and criticised Libs. Can Totters say the same about their own behaviour, re. their party? So far, I have only further confirmation that they are all zombies.

2 Comments:

  • At 7:47 AM, Blogger Greg Fingas said…

    Ummm...you're kidding, right?

    Since your basic math seems to be bearing as little resemblance to reality as the rest of your anti-NDP attacks, let's explain this simply: April 2007-February 2009 is 22 months, not less than 6. So yes, it was entirely possible to suggest an immediate end to the combat mission which would have brought our troops home earlier without having to quit NATO.

    And while I've criticized the NDP for not putting more effort into developing some wording all the opposition parties could agree on, it was the Libs themselves who drafted the wording approving of the continuation of the mission in the meantime - which they surely knew would prevent the NDP from approving their motion. (Not to mention who provided the votes for both of Harper's extensions in the first place.)

     
  • At 12:45 PM, Blogger Eugene Forsey Liberal said…

    The problem with what you're saying is that it ignores reality.

    1) In 2006, Govt, with HoC approval, extended mission to 2009. I disagreed with Lib free vote, but there you are. And to be fair to Cons, foreign policy is executive prerogative - 1st time we ever had such a vote.

    2) Con Govt, given 2006 motion and own position, was not about to withdraw soldiers.

    3) Libs & Bloc accepted 2006 outcome, given Parliament approved it - and remember, Bloc voted with NDP and against Govt in 2006.

    4) At time of vote, late April 2007, there was no election in the offing that could have brought in different government.

    5) Even had there been a different Govt, it would not have been an NDP majority.

    6) As a consequence, quickest possible cessation was to make Feb 2009 a hard deadline.

    7) Bloc agreed, and voted for Lib motion.

    8) NDP voted against, knowing it was unrealistic and self-indulgent, so as to not to share position with Libs.

    9) Post-Feb 2009, Soldiers still there, dying uselessly.

    The only realistic way to stop mission was for all three parties to vote for cessation at end of NATO mission. I wish Libs had been whipped and voted against 2006 extension, and opposed 2008 extension. But once these things happened, it would self-indulgent to try to ignore these realities and say "Troops have to come home now!". They couldn't then, they can't now, unless Govt is willing to quit NATO. Even if NDP was willing to do so, which it says it isn't, Libs & Bloc aren't. And Libs are only possible alternative to Cons. Even in a best-case scenario of Lib-NDP coalition, from NDP point of view, the Libs would not consent to breaking NATO obligations. I might. You might. Lib MPs wouldn't. So knowing that, you have to live within the bounds of reality. Dion Lib Motion was supported by Bloc. Not by NDP. And Totters thus condemned Canadian soldiers to death.

    I don't lie to myself about my own party's culpability. You shouldn't lie to yourself about yours. Saying "if I had bacon, I could make bacon and eggs, if I had eggs", is no argument. That simply wasn't situation. AND TOT CAUCUS KNEW IT. THE PRESS REPORTED INTERNAL DEBATE. AND THE CRAZIES AND CYNICS WON.

    To change the world, we must live in the world as it is, and not as we wish it. For once, TOT could have had positive determining effect on biggest policy question imaginable, and it bottled it, lost in narcissism.

    Admit that, and your criticism of Libs and others will be strengthened by your increased credibility.

     

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