Ruger 1911

I know I'm behind most everyone on this, but Ruger has just released their 1911-pattern pistol, model "SR1911".

Eight big ones list price, I'd hope for a street price around seven. IF it runs well, it should be a heck of a bargain, and most gamers would find it to be pretty well-set already for IDPA's CDP class.

Hopefully they'll have a few in Pittsburgh next weekend that I can fondle and examine.

Collecting Firearms and You

I don't consider myself a firearms expert - not by any stretch of the imagination. If you want expertise on antique and/or collectible guns, there are plenty of other sources out there. I know a little bit more than the average bear about a few particular guns, and one of those is the Ithaca 1911. It's my one and only Grail Gun at the moment; I would gladly trade almost anything in my safe for a correct sample.

I was curious when I got an email from Goose Hillock that they would be listing used handguns online, so I clicked over and saw that they had a listing for an Ithaca. Sure enough, it's a 1911, and listed for $1400 - a pretty fair price if the gun is correct.

"Correct" to a collector means a few things: proper markings (slide, barrel, frame, inspection, ordnance, etc), proper parts (grips, mainspring housing, trigger, hammer, grip safety, etc), and does not necessarily put "overall condition" high on the list. These are things that the average counter ninja at $BoxGunStore isn't going to know to look for.

An "Ithaca Gun Co" slide can be had on Gunbroker for as little as a hundred bucks, and a cheap 1911A1 can be another $500. Put them together and you've got a gun that clearly says "Ithaca" on it, but there's only about $600 worth of investment. Turn around and take it to $BoxGunStore and ask for $1000 trade value; leave with a new AR or what-have-you and you're money ahead, and the store is sitting on a worthless gun.

So, here's a few things to look for - or at least the things that caught my eye.

We'll start with the overall gun:




Looks like a pretty decent gun. Some wear, but that's to be expected with a 65-70 year old gun, right? But a few things jump out...
The trigger:


Ithaca used a knurled trigger face on their 1911s, and it had a fairly significant radius to it. You should be able to see the knurling on the leading edge from that angle. Also, there should NOT be a gap between the trigger and the frame - along the bottom half of the back edge. Additionally, a gun of this age should have much more wear on the sides of the trigger.

In the same photo, above and to the right of the trigger is where the ordnance inspection mark should be stamped. "FJA" was the inspector at the Rochester Ordnance Depot and was responsible for ALL of the Ithaca 1911s. (Cite.) There should also be a "P" under the magazine release - indicating a proof test.

Same photo, note the difference in wear and patina between the slide and frame.

The mainspring housing:


Ithaca used a seven-groove MSH for their 1911s. This one *appears* to be un-grooved; in other words, a replacement. Also note the significant color/patina difference between the MSH and the frame.

The right rear of the frame:


To the left of the grip panel is where the ordnance acceptance stamp (crossed cannons) should be.

The hammer looks ... wrong. Can't quite pin it - perhaps short? - but it's not right, either. Same for the grip safety. Again, finish and patina consistent with the overall gun should be a big clue.

And, last but not least, the serial number:


Government-purchased 1911 serial number ranges are very well documented. Ithaca did not produce ANY in the 400,000 range. On top of that, all the Ithacas should be stamped "US GOVT PROPERTY" immediately under the serial number.

There is a LOT of money in collectible guns - no question about it. If you choose to get into it, arm yourself with knowledge before buying, and take a second set of eyes if you're looking at a large price tag. This Ithaca is stickered at $1400, but the reality is whomever buys it is probably getting a mix-master pot-metal gun with an Ithaca slide slapped on, worth perhaps $4-500.

Caveat Emptor.

Two is one...

Well, you know how that little tidbit ends.

Had a "first" in guns for me the other morning, and just now figured out what happened.

I got up at oh-dark-early Saturday morning to try filling a nuisance tag with a friend. (Nuisance tags are officially "deer depredation permits" and allow the taking of adult anterless deer outside the regular hunting season.) I hadn't gotten all my hunting kit together the night before, having been out celebrating a night off with a friend who has a six-month-old.

My hunting kit, like many hunters, ends up sort of scattered and jumbled as the various game seasons progress. By the end of winter, there is usually a large pile of RealTree/MossyOak/jungle camo "stuff" stashed into my closet.

The alarm buzzed, I slammed it off, grumbled and rolled my way to vertical. I fumbled on my undershorts and camo pants, grabbed a t-shirt from the pile, unburied my camo jacket, and stumbled my way downstairs to the safe. I pulled out my .270, a magazine for it, and a sling. After getting the sling attached, I stuffed the rifle in a zippered case and dug out four rounds for the magazine, then slipped that in a pocket.

Next, sidearm. I reached for the 21-4 out of habit, and started digging through the pile of leather on the top shelf for its holster ... Found one for the 9mm ... one for the 242 ... retention holster for the 1911 ... yaqui slide for the 1911 ... but no holster for the N-frames. Chances are its still sitting in the pile of hunting stuff, cast off at the end of regular season as muzzleloading season started.

I muttered and decided to take the 1911. Slipped on the retention holster, grabbed a magazine of ball ammo, and slid it into the pistol... Or tried to, anyway. About halfway up it hit some firm resistance. I nudged the mag catch and it went in the rest of the way, albeit a little stiff. Worked the slide and popped the catch to drop the magazine - except it wouldn't drop.

After pulling the magazine out with my fingers, I grabbed the next full magazine of ball off the shelf and slapped that in. Same issue - first half is fine, and as soon as it hits the mag catch, it got real sticky. I decided to take a chance and go with it as-is; it's a backup gun when I'm hunting and the slide felt fine. I didn't have to use it, although I did reach for it when I saw a doe standing in the brush 15 yards distant - she ran before I had it out.

This afternoon, I finally got around to checking the pistol. I presumed some gunk or corrosion had found their way into the mag well and was slowing things down. I field-stripped the piece, and looked down the well from both sides. A bit of powder residue, but it looked clean overall.

I grabbed the mag I'd been using and tried it... sticky insertion and wouldn't drop free. Grabbed the second one, and had the same result. A third magazine, however, inserted cleanly and dropped free easily. Hmmm...

I emptied the cartridges from the first two magazines and looked closely... sure enough, the feed lips had been bent out just enough to widen the magazine at the top. In fact, the follower was just barely being retained by the lips. Looking at the third magazine - the follower was clearly in further.

Now, these were cheap magazines, I won't deny that. My sort-of-local Surplus shop had a bin full of contract overrun GI magazines, new-in-the-wrapper, at 3/$25. They are 7-rounders, and stamped "COLT 45 AUTO" on the (welded-in-place) floorplate. They've functioned 100% until now. In truth, of all the magazines I checked tonight, only these two had issues - and they are NOT the only milsurps I have. All purchased at the same time. All have been kept fully loaded. It IS possible these two have seen more rounds cycled than some; most of the others are loaded with JHPs and don't get unloaded at the range.

In any case ... the failure point was certainly not what I was expecting, and a few new 1911 mags are now on my shopping list ... and yes, I'll probably be coughing up for 8-round stainless from a known maker. When I have a moment I'll run the calipers across them to see how far out of spec they are.

New boomers tried

Spent a couple hours this morning on trigger time with a nearby gunny and fellow Appleseeder. Tossed several guns in the truck and a bag of ammo and headed off.

We spent some time getting my S&W 647 zeroed at 25m (got it close, not great)... then tried and zeroed my new-to-me Win94. It's shooting minute-of-deer at 100yd which is all I need from it. Trigger still sucks - I'm hoping some shooting or dry-firing will smooth that out. Might need to get some snap caps.

Re-zeroed my Savage MkII... it had been adjusted for 100yd shooting, and I brought it back to 25m.

Brought out the Savage 93 and worked the kinks out. Had it happily zeroed at 25m and then it fell from its position leaning in the corner and the zero went bye-bye. I was unpleased. Re-zeroed. It is now 1/2" low at 25m and dead-on at 100yd - just about perfect for squirrels and other small game.

MrsZ re-zeroed her 10/22 to 25m as well.

Played with the MkIII 22/45, the 1911, the Bersa ... tried a Springfield XD9 ... and spiffiest of all, a Marlin .45-70. It didn't kick like I thought it would. Stiff, but really not any worse than a 12ga with a slug. Definitely worth consideration.

Side note, I tried my latest batch of handloads for the 1911. Trying a new powder, RamShot TrueBlue. Not bad. I'll be loading up a couple boxes of that for competition.

Gun Nuttery

... or, How To Make Sarah Brady Cry.

JayG recently wrote a post about "you might be a gun nut if..."

High on my list is this:
- if it's gun related and makes you giggle or Sarah Brady cry, you're probably a gun nut.

MrsZ and I have been packing and moving to our new house recently, and today I cleaned out the ammo closet and cabinets and shelf and loaded it into the truck.

Things like this:



Make Sarah Brady cry.

Admittedly, I have a smaller truck, and it's not filling up the WHOLE bed... but in those crates and ammo cans, neatly labelled, are Winchester 9mm, Wolf 9mm, 12ga galore of various flavors, and a fair pile of 20ga as well. And some .270Win. And more than a few bricks of .22LR.

In the front seat is a crate o' reloading stuff - brass, powder, and bullets. Primers (a large box full) have already been relocated.

In the back seat are three shotguns, a rifle, a muzzleloader, and an evil-looking assault bow (Oneida Black Eagle, also known as the Uncle Ted Special).

Oh, and a magic blue briefcase of joy on the front seat (a S&W box - currently empty, but I have things to put in it).

And a gun vault full of .45 goodness.

Rolling doom, baby, rolling dooooooom!


Side note: ran through the Mart of Wal last night for some home sundries. Stopped by the ammo counter on a whim. They had, no kidding, WWB .45, .40, 9mm, and bricks of Winchester HV .22. MrsZ said I had to leave it all there.

IDPA July 09

Match results won't be up for another day or two. Shot the match this morning after a poor night's sleep and felt wonky the whole time. Rhythm was off, etc. First stage I got dinged by splash from a plate, leaving a nice crease on my left forearm. By the fifth stage my gun was refusing to go into battery consistently; I'm inclined to blame the wax on the cast bullets I'm using. It seems to gum up the action pretty quickly. Next batch from someone else...

Ran a couple cylinders through the 647... tack driver. Almost zero recoil. Just a pleasant gun to shoot.

Gun Porn!

I finally had a moment to snap a few pictures of the latest acquisitions. I'm in some hot water, but it was worth it. (As always, click to embiggen.)

First:
Winchester Model 1894 .30-30. There are multiple flavors of these out there. "Pre-1964" is considered the most desirable and commands a price premium. "Post-64" is still a nice rifle, but due to less expensive manufacturing techniques, isn't as sought-after... and last is versions with a cross-bolt safety. This version is a post-64, pre-safety. The bluing is in fair condition - there are a few speckles of rust here and there and it's thinned out a little on the receiver. The bore is shiny and smooth - *no* visible throat damage or erosion. The classic "carried lots, shot little". Only one picture because time was short:




Second, and perhaps more interesting:
Smith & Wesson 647 .17HMR. I've already discussed the model at length, so on to the porn!









For the record - that's a Government 1911A1. The 647's barrel alone is as long as the entire 1911.

A cartridge comparison, .45ACP 230gr JHP next to a 17gr V-Max .17HMR.



No range report yet - time has been at a premium as we prepare for a move. Hopefully Saturday morning I'll have some free time at the match to run a couple cylinders through.

(I know, Oleg I am not ... I'm way out of practice too.)

To refinish or not?

I've been lax in posting; the pace of life has been insane and involved a tremendous amount of overtime in the past week.

I posted a bit ago about the S&W 647 I'd put a deposit on... that has yet to come to fruition. New York's cumbersome pistol permit process requires me to register each pistol I purchase; my county requires a judge's signature for each registration... and my county's judge has been less-than-prompt about signing recently. My first few pistols were usually four to six business days. My most recent was two weeks. This has now been just over three weeks, and there is no way to find out the status of the process. So be it. Meantime, I will be making a face-to-face trade for my Mini (for a Winchester 1894) tomorrow - completely legal and no extraneous people necessary.

In other gun news... Most gun collectors, serious or not, know what a "Grail Gun" is. Not the magnetic-acceleration particle rifle, that's a rail gun. A grail gun is The One Gun... it may change, and once one is acquired, another grail may be determined. In my case, the Grail is a non-mixmaster Ithaca 1911A1. There are a fair number floating around out there, but as they age (only produced for a few years in the 1940s), more and more are being retrofitted with new parts and losing their character. It takes a good eye and good grasp of history and serial numbers to pick out a non-mix gun; it's not uncommon for a slide to get slapped on a different frame and be sold under the slide's label.

On top of the mixed-parts problem comes another: refinishing.

Don't get me wrong: I have no inherent issue with someone paying the money for a careful refinish of a piece that is important for sentimental reasons, or even simply because "I want it"... but dammit, be careful when you're picking your finish and who's doing it.

Case in point... I was poking around an auction site last night and came across two items listed as Ithaca 1911s. One is an obvious veteran - there is an honest patina of wear and use, and this is a look that I love and appreciate. The numbers match and the proof marks all appear to be correct. Without stripping it I can't be sure, but it's probably a legit Ithaca 1911.

The second... well, it was originally listed as an Ithaca 1911. It's been refinished (from an original parkerising to a satin blue), and in the process, the sharp edges have all been smoothed. If this were a carry gun, it would be described as a "light melt"... but this isn't a carry gun. It's a piece of history. In all likelihood, it saw holster time in one war or another - if not WWII, then quite probably Korea or Vietnam. Combat? Possibly. The original grips are long gone, replaced with cheap plastic "stag" grips. A sharp-eyed observer must have emailed the seller, as there is a note in the listing that by serial number, it's a Remington-Rand frame, with an Ithaca slide. (See: Mixmaster.)

I've no doubt it's a functional 1911 - it has plenty of history attached to it - but my own sense of propriety and aesthetics says this is a sham... the firearm equivalent of slapping some Bondo on that stone-chipped hood and then spraying it with a can of Rustoleum.

I'm sure you can gather which is which:





PS: If anyone reading this does happen to have a gin-yoo-wine Ithaca 1911A1 that they'd like to part with, please let me know ... I'd be willing to move a lot of mountains to get to one.