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Assume for a moment that, instead of using PEDs, Barry Bonds had retired after his 1999 season (WAR of 3.8, age 34). That leaves him with a career WAR of 103.3, which puts him 19 all time, solidly worthy of the Hall, but not anywhere close to Ruth, Mays, Cobb, et al. Perhaps without the PEDs he would have recovered to his previous form, or, maybe, he would have continued to deteriorate, like most players do by their mid 30s (without PEDs). We don't know, and I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. So, no, he's not among the "best players of any generation", unless you're willing to let him, and only him, use PEDs.
Bonds had a WAR over 6.8 in each of the three seasons prior to 1999
And in 1999 had a 4.2 bWAR in only 102 games. Yeah, he was really deteriorating.
unless you're willing to let him, and only him, use PEDs.
There were a ton of other players also using PEDs, and Bonds still had years where he was more than 150% better than his steroid using peers (against steroid using pitchers). So by the time he was 34 he was already one of the top 20 players of all time, and then on a level playing field against many other steroid users he was still far and away better than everyone. I'd say that qualifies for "best players of any generation".
Man, I feel like Jim Edmonds will end up as one of the best players never to make the HOF
Just chilling with Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Mark Mcgwire, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Larry Walker, Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling and Mike Mussina.
~;::::::;( )"> ¯\_( )_/¯
Jason Giambi Retires:
Giambi apologized again on May 16, 2007, this time specifically for using steroids, and urged others in the sport to do the same.[34] "I was wrong for using that stuff", he told USA Today. "What we should have done a long time ago was stand up—players, ownership, everybody—and said, 'We made a mistake.'" When asked why he used steroids, Giambi responded: "Maybe one day I'll talk about it, but not now." Giambi did speak with George J. Mitchell, after being forced to do so by Bud Selig. Subsequently, in December 2007, the Mitchell Report included Giambi along with his brother Jeremy Giambi, who also admitted to using steroids during his career.[35]
The Only Conspiracy Here Is An Attempt To Hide Their Hypocrisy
While Schilling may have some semblance of a point about him being a Republican, that's not the real reason why Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire and some others are not in HOF. Its because if the BW allow themselves to elect them into the HOF it exposes them as being complicit in the PED era of baseball. These are the same writers who knew what was going on and yet still wrote of the glorious accolades of these players for many years without saying a thing about what they saw going on in the clubhouses.
These very same writers made tons of money writing about the chase for Maris in 1998 and the chase for the Babe a few years later. They knew what was going on yet remained silent. Why? Maybe because they knew these players, while doing something shady, were not technically doing anything illegal. And if they also wrote about the PEDs, they'd have to also write about MLB's guilt in turning a blind eye to what was going on. After all, MLB and its owners were raking in the money from all the Home Run fever going on.
Think about for a second. McGwire admitted to using PEDs. Palmeiro got caught. Sosa too. Yet what punishment did they receive from MLB? Fines? no. Suspensions? Nope. Not a single punishment from MLB. Even Bonds, while widely known to have been using PEDs, was never punished by MLB. And his only crime was impeding a federal investigation. Nowadays players are being punished by MLB for using. What's the difference? Didn't the Commissioner's office send out a memo in the early 90s saying that use of PEDs was not acceptable in MLB clubhouses? Yes he did. But what force and power did that memo have?
Literally NONE. Without the consent and agreement of MLBPA, likely as part of a CBA, to punish players for any behavior whatsoever, a memo from the Commissioner has no weight whatsoever. It'd be like the President of the US declaring something to be illegal without the consent of Congress. Sure, the President could have someone arrested for violating such a law. But he could never prosecute them. Simply because there is no underlying law from which a prosecutor could prosecute or a jury could convict or judge could penalize. Its not a perfect analogy, but its close enough to help you understand that a memo from the commissioner without an agreement with the MLBPA on enforcing that rule and how to punish leaves the rule in that memo impotent.
What Clemens and Bonds and others did prior to the CBA agreement in 2003 or so established an accepted rule for MLB is no more a violation of the rules of baseball than throwing a spitball was prior to 1920. Ironically, even decades after it became illegal in baseball for a pitcher to doctor a baseball, Gaylord Perry made it into the HOF, in no small part, because of his doctoring of baseballs.
Bud Selig was the deaf, dumb and blind kid when it was one of his own "allegedly" caught dirty.
He tried to care, ended up looking like a lame duck.
Last March, at the team's invitation, the Giants said Bonds would appear at spring training as a hitting instructor. Bud Selig was not amused. He was about to commence his celebratory final round as commissioner, and Bonds was an unwelcome reminder of Selig's many embarrassments.
Selig talked angrily by phone with Giants officials, according to people in Major League Baseball. I hope Giants executives giggled into the receiver.
@txbtxb
Did he have that same call with the Cardinals when they brought back McGwire?
McGwire cried and apologized, bro.
Selig still maintains that a lab tech had a personal grudge against Braun. Way to try and bail out your (daughter's) team.
I thought all we needed was drug testing in baseball and this trend was going to reverse? SOB, they pulled another fast one on us.
I guess the youths of America were not following the example of A-Rod, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire -- if indeed any of them even know who these guys are or hold them up as role models anyway.
"There's so much pressure on winning — it's tough for these kids to stay true to themselves," he said. "I can't change every kid's mind, but if I can do my part and other people do their part, we can beat this monster."
Tygart, who as USADA's chief oversaw investigations of Armstrong and Hamilton, noted that stringent testing regimens are an increasingly effective deterrent to doping among athletes in major pro sports and in INTERNATIONAL competitions.
"But most young athletes are not in any testing PROGRAM, and their chance of getting caught is zero," he said. "When left unchecked, the win-at-all-cost culture will take over and athletes will make the wrong decision."
Among the groups seeking to reverse the teen doping trend is the Texas-based Taylor Hooton Foundation, named after a 17-year-old high school athlete whose suicide in 2003 was blamed by his family on his use of anabolic steroids. Its staff has spoken to thousands of young people at school assemblies and sports camps.
Donald Hooton Sr., Taylor's father and the foundation's president, depicted teen doping as an epidemic fueled by widespread ignorance among parents and coaches. He estimated that more than 1.5 million youths in the U.S. have tried steroids.
Information about teen use of performance-enhancing drugs is readily available online. The Mayo Clinic, for example, provides a list of possible hazards and side-effects, including stunted growth, ACNE, liver problems, shrunken testicles for boys and excess facial hair for girls.
The clinic urges parents to check the ingredients of over-the-counter products used by their teens, and to be on the lookout for warning signs, including increased aggressiveness, rapid weight gain, and needle marks in the buttocks or thighs.
But at least we have testing in baseball going for us.
And an endless stream of 1-0, 2-1 games to replace the 5-4, 6-5 games and they still take 3-3 1/2 hours to play. Where's the benefit? Well the cash register is still ringing and franchise values are more pumped up than Barry, Sammy, Alex and Markie-Mark could ever hope to be.
Kids are using these substances for the same reason(s) it seems they always have -- not to improve their performance on a baseball field -- but to improve the chances of securing more glances from and getting in more pantses of the opposite sex. Some things never change. I blame the Hollywood culture. These numbers will go down when they attack IT with the same vigor and energy they attacked baseball.
The debate surfaces periodically and revolves around the "is today's player better than players from other eras", whether it be the 70's and 80's -- the WWI era -- or the Ruth / Cobb era.
For certain, I believe the quality of the athlete that baseball is recruiting is better now than ever before. Whether that always translates into better players centers around my belief that coaching, especially at the major league level -- but in the minors as well -- has not kept up.
Coaching may be as good or better than ever at the collegiate and HS level. The youth level, IMO still leaves something to be desired. Generally speaking the level of coaching is improving there, if only sporadically.
Putting aside for a moment the segue arguments
- "Do bigger players equal better players?"
and the pejorative fallback argument
- "How did they get bigger and stronger?"
clearly the trend toward bigger, stronger, faster equaling "more productive" players has pretty much been settled. "Better" is in the eye of the beholder and is dependent on many variables that can not be extracted or accounted for through statistical analysis or the dreaded "eyeball" test.
Some fans will prefer 1-0, 2-0 pitching duels and some will continue to prefer the "chicks dig the long ball" era. The pendulum tends to swing from one extreme to another and back again.
The following article touches on many of the relevant areas of discussion.
"Current baseball scouts generally focus their attention on larger prospects, particularly pitchers
BABE RUTH STILL STANDS AS ONE of the legendary giants of baseball, but if he were alive today, he would stand taller than only 48 percent of the players who were on major-league 40-man rosters at the start of spring training.
The Bambino was listed at 6-2 and 195 pounds before his weight became a major problem during the second half of his career. He is remembered as a much larger man because most newsreel footage of him was taken during his last few seasons-- and because he was always much bigger than the average player of his time.
But if the young, strapping Ruth were magically transported into the 21st century, he would not stand out in the team picture of any major-league club. His wonderful baseball skills aside, he would be--in terms of vital statistics--a very average guy."
The 1927 "Murderers' Row" New York Yankees were one of the most dominating, intimidating teams in history, yet the average height and weight of a member of that storied group, even with such big bruisers as Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Bob Meusel at the heart of the lineup, was just 5-11 and 176 pounds.
The 1975 world champion Cincinnati Reds--immortalized as "The Big Red Machine"--illustrated what a difference a half-century can make. The players on that Reds club averaged 6-1 and 188 pounds.
The 2001 three-time defending world champion Yankees are not really known as one of the most physically imposing teams on the planet, but they weigh in with an average height and weight of 6-2 and 204 pounds.
Changes.....through the years. Sometimes, it's difficult to see the forest for the trees and remember how things used to be in the 'good old days'. Then you see an old ESPN classic and you realize that "Hey, Jennie Finch actually looks more athletic than some major leaguers from the 70's appeared.
Specialization and AAU-ization...always a factor. Participation in other sports, in conjunction with or to the exclusion of other sports has changed the landscape somewhat.
If it were totally a matter of evolution, the process presumably would take place at a much slower rate. It appears, in this case, that the Darwinian notion of natural selection has been replaced with just plain selection. Baseball players are taller because scouts are out looking for taller baseball players.
"In our industry, as far as evaluating talent, you're driven to larger bodies," said Cardinals director of baseball operations John Mozeliak. "When you go to the Dominican Republic, for instance, you get all these kids at the tryouts. The first thing you look at is how a guy looks in the uniform. You're very unlikely to give any money to a guy who's 5-9 and 170 pounds."
This isn't necessarily a new concept, but several other factors may contribution to the greater availability of tall athletes during the past decade or so--most notably a vast increase in the number and diversity of youth sports programs.
The average 1960s kid played Little League and maybe Pop Warner football. The 1980s kid also had soccer, basketball and other team and individual sports to keep them active year-round.
"I think one thing that's happening is that participation is at its highest level as far as youth sports, so the pool of talent to choose from has grown," said Cardinals trainer Barry Weinstein. "And you're developing a more well-rounded athlete, so a kid doesn't have to like basketball just because he's 6-9."
And the generational shift from sandlot sports to highly organized youth programs probably has the added effect of weeding out kids with less natural athletic ability much earlier--creating a better youth talent pool at the expense of some of the young people they were supposed to benefit.
You can see from the following table that HR champs have been getting bigger over the course of the last few decades. The typical HR slugger from the good old days would be average sized today.
BIG LEAGUE SLUGGERS ARE GETTING BIGGER--Despite the fact that league home run champions have had little change in size over the last 80 years, the most dramatic change has been the number of power hitters. From 1921 through 1940, hitting 40 or more homers in a season was accomplished 32 times by 12 different players. From 1941 through 1960, it was accomplished 44 times by 17 different sluggers. From 1961 through 1980, the number rose to 54 times that a player hit 40 homers in a season, reached by 30 different players. And during the last 20 years (1981-2000), the number of 40-homer hitters jumped to 98 times accomplished by 49 different players. Below is a chart of the average size of league home run champions dating back to 1921.
Total Avg. Avg. Avg.
ERA HR Champs Height Weight HR Output
1991-2000 Mark McGwire (6-5, 250) Howard Johnson (5-11, 178)
1981-1990 Jose Canseco (6-4, 240) Kevin Mitchell (5-11, 210)
1971-1980 Dave Kingman (6-6, 210) Dick Allen (5-11, 190)
1961-1970 Frank Howard (6-7, 255) Willie Mays (5-11, 180)
1951-1960 Hank Sauer (6-4, 200) Al Rosen (5-10, 180)
1941-1950 Hank Greenberg (6-3-210) Mel Ott (5-9, 170)
1931-1940 Hank Greenberg (6-3, 210) Ripper Collins (5-9, 165)
1921-1930 Babe Ruth (6-2, 215) Hack Wilson (5-6, 190)
COPYRIGHT 2001 Century Publishing
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group
From the table in this article, the player of today has to compete against more potential players today than ever before, even with expansion. Although they do accommodate for the exclusion of black and Hispanic players in the past, the pre-war major leaguer did not see the diversity of talent culled from around the globe that today's player competes against.
Another factor, to be considered but not readily apparent from the table above is the effect of the various wars on the availability of 18 - 30 year old males, a crucial variable at times.
Think of how much that talent pool was diluted during the war years -- a time during which "One-armed" Pete Gray played.
Baseball in Wartime is dedicated to preserving the memories of all baseball players (major league, negro league, minor league, semi-pro, college, amateur and high school), who served with the military between 1940 and 1946.
World War II was a trying time for the United States and equally so for baseball. More than 4,500 professional players swapped flannels for military uniforms to serve their nation and future Hall of Famers like Bob Feller, Hank Greenberg, Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams lost vital playing time in the prime of their careers. What is far less commonly known is that at least 130 minor league players lost their lives while serving their country.
Before WWII began, Major League Baseball enjoyed record popularity. Ted Williams batted a record-setting .406, Joe DiMaggio, set a record with hits in 56 consecutive games, 41-year-old Lefty Grove won his 300th career win, and the New York Yankees collected an unprecedented ninth World Series championship.(Baseball in Wartime)
Following Pearl Harbor, overwhelming patriotism spread throughout the nation, causing many young men to enlist including future Hall of Fame players Hank Greenburg and Bob Feller who gave up the prime their careers to be a part of the war effort.
Greenburg summed up what all players at the time were feeling, telling the Sporting News that “If there's any last message to be given to the public, let it be that I'm going to be a good soldier.”
Although a small minority of Americans expressed displeasure towards apparently fit men participating in sports and shirking military duties, Private John E Stevenson, expressed the more widely held view that, "baseball is part of the American way of life. Remove it and you remove something from the lives of American citizens, soldiers and sailors."
Along with future Hall of Famers, many other quality major league players enlisted or were drafted, significantly lowering the quality of play. Average players were now stars, and scrubs who were destined to be career minor leaguers received opportunities to play significant roles on big league clubs.
Using David Finoli’s highly embraced statistical formula, as seen in For the Good of the Country: World War II Baseball in the Major and Minor Leagues, a list of the top 64 ball players during the war seasons (1942-1945) was developed, headed by a Roy Sanders.
Although a fine player, it was clear a somewhat obscure player today, benefited playing against lesser competition. This can be seen by comparing his statistics during and after the war.
The list contains several other fine players, but does not include a future Hall of Fame player until the 14th player on the list, Cleveland Indians shortstop Lou Boudreau. Four highly productive seasons along with six to eight above average ones can usually make a player’s case for entry into the Hall of Fame.
Yet none of the top 13 players during the war made the Hall, proving that these players were unable to perform at the same level when up against the best and that statistically speaking the level of play during the time was lower.
Over time, we have seen baseball players, and the game at large, adapt to many significant changes that have collided to bring about many of the observed changes to the perceived caliber of play.
- The mound was lowered in 1969 from 15 inches to 10 inches in height after the dominance of pitching ( think Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA ). As a result, scouts and coaches preferred to select taller pitchers to make up the lost difference in leverage the lower mound provided. The short (under 6-foot) RHP became an endangered species in baseball as a result IMO.
- Free agency and guaranteed contracts resulting from the Curt Flood battle against the Reserve Clause has resulted in players beginning treated as more valuable commodities. Prior to 1969, even star players were considered expendable if productivity diminished even slightly. Players were on year to year contracts, security was day to day. Pitch Counts and increased use of bullpen specialists has been the slow, but inevitable outgrowth.
Structural changes such as Astroturf, Questec and increased use of PED's have brought about both observed and statistical changes and anomalies that can never be fully accounted for and so the debate will continue forever.
If you don't think that Questec was a huge and underrated development in the offense / defense equilibrium, take a look at the "strikes" called in some of those Braves - Twins World Series highlights or the infamous Eric Gregg / Livan Hernandez playoff game. There's a reason why Curt Schilling took a bat to an early version of Questec machinery that was in the Diamondbacks dugout. The handwriting was on the wall that a subtle but important pitching advantage was about to be lost.
It's one reason why I like to look to the Olympic sports, specifically track and field or swimming events, to observe and evaluate macro changes in athletes over different eras. The skill sports are too complex to assess causes and effects. The Olympic sports are ideal for statistical analysis because of their inherent simplicity: Running is a universal and fundamental athletic event. Distances don't change, gravity and friction are constants. Even in swimming, the resistance that water provides doesn't change materially over time.
----
In swimming, the 1924 Men's Olympic champion and symbol of virility for machismo for the era, Johnny Weismuller of Tarzan fame, swam a 59.0 sec. 100 meter freestyle.
USA'S JOHNNY WEISMULLER - 1924 PARIS OLYMPICS CHAMPION
In the 2008 Beijing Olympics, Germany's Britta Steffen swam the same event in 53.12 seconds. American Natalie Coughlin swan it in 53.39 seconds for an American record. Both times would have obliterated Weismuller's time.
In track and field, the 1936 Olympic champion Jesse Owens would be challenged to beat the current women's 100 meter champion, Jamaica's Shelly-Ann Fraser. Owens won the 1936 event with a 10.3 sec. time. Fraser's 2008 100 meter time of 10.78 would have placed her sixth in the 1936 men's 100 meter championship heat and made her the fourth fastest American at the time.
Jesse Owens was 5'10" and 165. Fraser tips in at 5'3" and 115. A shorter version, pound for pound of Owens. Looking at some of these comparisons, I am with David Wells -- a Babe Ruth fan -- when he says "15-70-.270" to state what he believes Babe Ruth's stat line would be today.
No night games, no sliders, he may have been exaggerating a little bit, but not by much.
The pre-war American athlete, in many instances, can only compare favorably to female athletes today. Once again demonstrating that the Nixon-era Title IX legislation may have been one of the most underrated pieces of legislation of all time in this country.
There are simply too many factors to consider to make a definitive answer to the underlying question we started with, which is why this question will continue to be fuel for debate for many generations to come.
This is a scene that nobody who was a Tiger Woods fanatic ever DREAMED they would associate with him either personally or professionally.
And therin lies the crux of the problem we see time and time again when dealing with the crestfallen athlete. We assume that the prodigious character traits and abilities that we see and admire in the field of competition correlates with the same athlete possessing the same qualities and abilities off the field. IT JUST ISN'T SO. LESSON LEARNED, ONCE AGAIN.
He's a golfer. A great golfer. Maybe the best golfer of all-time. He wasn't a god of some sort, worthy of false idolatry. What we should learn from this is not to get too caught up in the "building up" process, so that we are not as crestfallen when the athlete goes through the inevitable "tearing down" process.
They build them up. They team them down. They rebuild them if the circumstances allow it.
It's been going on with superstar players since I don't know when.
This cycle should not come as such a great surprise to us because we've seen it so often and Tiger even touched on it within his apology. He got caught up in the situation. He believed the press clippings. The repetitive cycle includes a process of building a person up as the "next" whatever or whoever. We put too much faith and too much emotion in this part of the process. We want to believe in the inherent greatness of those we admire. Inevitably, the person disappoints in some fashion (what, being human and all) and is torn down as an idol worthy of our praises. Then, if they are fortunate, there is a period of redemption, or a comeback. Tiger is simply moving through the various stages a little quicker than we previously thought he would.
I thought the apology itself was very thorough and comprehensive and very heart-felt, if not somewhat mechanical in delivery.
Like McGwire's apology, it could not have been easy for someone who was at one time on top of the sports world, to find himself almost literally lying face down in the dumpster.
Unlike McGwire's apology, there was no evasiveness, no finger pointing. Tiger's apology should be the template for other athlete's to use in the future.
So WHEREVER Tiger finds guidance to deal with this in the future (elbows Britt Hume in the ribs), I wish him luck.
I heard some interesting tidbits from the Frank Thomas retirement press conference last week here in Chicago. I wish I could find an audio or a transcript of it.
Frank was one of the more outspoken players in his stance against the growing PED issue and was held up, along with Griffey, as one of the top sluggers in the era who did not cheat. He was prodded to comment on the recent McGwire apology and his thoughts on the era in general. While he generally avoided the question he did mention a couple of other issues he said contributed greatly to his ability to develop as a premier power hitter.
First, was his early career development under Sox hitting coach Walt Hriniak. I devoured Hriniak's hitting book and used a lot of his tenets in developing my approach in teaching hitting. I loved the aesthetics of the swing and the results it produced. Hriniak worked with Thomas, Robin Ventura with the Pale Hose in addition to his work with many of the Red Sox hitters of that era. Wherever he went, it seemed as if increased production would follow.
Second, he mentioned baseball's general approach through the umpires of taking away much of the inside part of the plate from the pitchers. The old-school pitchers like Drysdale and Bob Gibson of knocking guys down or sending "message" pitches went the way of the dinosaur early in Thomas' career and hitters were able to crowd the plat and dive into pitches with impunity.
Combined with the improved body-armor technology and the implementation of Questec pitchers literally had no safe haven to pitch to.
Finally, he mentioned how his career really blossomed when he learned how to distinguish between the pitch on the inside corner that he could drive down the line and keep fair as opposed to the one that was maybe a little off the plate and would hook foul.
One part improved pitch recognition plus one part improved hitting mechanics equals one very dangerous hitter.
Sounds like something straight out of the Ted Williams book on hitting.
P.S. - He also did mention that he felt he had an advantage athletically being a two-sport athlete over other players early in his career and this gave him a lot of confidence that he would succeed.
It did seem as if when the multi-sport athletes like Thomas, Bo Jackson, Kenny Lofton and Deoin Sanders among others came into the league it forced other players to up their game in terms of strength and conditioning in baseball.
It's pretty much understood, as well as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, that players from the present era will be dogged by the envy and jealousy of players from bygone eras. I call it "The Grumpy Old Men syndrome". It's like that in life as well. Parents and grandparents always question how young people are doing things and reminding them of how much better things were in their era. And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning, doesn't it?
In baseball, the phenomena has been taken to higher levels IMO ever since Marvin Miler and Curt Flood broke down the walls of the Reserve Clause and escalated salaries to levels never before dreamed of by players. Every prior-era player has been dogged by feelings of jealousy and envy ever since.
Then the memorabilia craze monetized autographs to insane levels. The value of having the coveted initials H.O.F. to put after your signature--on stuff that would have been garage sale material in prior eras--widened the divide even further.
Money and power corrupt. That may never change.
Combine all that with the growth of media into a huge monolith, more interested in protecting its position and place in the food chain than doing anything to elevate the game, and you have the toxic PR stew that we see continuously playing out in baseball today.
The media had the narrative WRONG in the past when they bashed the union and players about how Marvin Miller and Curt Flood challenging the Reserve Clause and bleated incessantly about how it would "Destroy the Game". WRONG!!! And what do we leave for posterity? Marvin Miller and Curt Flood are not in the Hall of Fame, and Bowie Kuhn--who is to Commissioning (is that even a word?) what Gilbert Arenas is to the Wizards basketball team, a non-entity--is in the Hall of Fame.
HOW ABOUT THAT!!!
The media, en masse, were late to the steroid story. And WRONG!!! At virtually every stage of the story as it developed, CONSISTENTLY WRONG!! Especially the beat writers who were closest to the situation. Imbedded daily in the team's locker rooms!!
And they will be late, missing or wrong to cover the next big controversy. Can you say steroid use in the Dominican Republic?
So the track record of the media has been this--they were WRONG in the past, for the most part WRONG today, and they will be WRONG in the future. I say that because they will act in the future as they have always acted in the past. They do not have a track record that can be relied upon. Zero credibility on the issue.
And when you understand that the media is the mouthpiece of the owners, you can understand why perhaps the narrative is framed as it is.
Why does this cycle continue? Who knows? Self preservation is my guess. Protection of turf. Some CYA. Finger-pointing. The Blame Game. All of it really, which also includes the shifting of blame and the rewriting of history by some. We see the same thing on a larger level being played out as a result of the economic/financial mess we are in as a country. A lot of eerie parallels.
So, as we see time and time again,--from A-Rod to the McGwire admission tour and coming soon to a theater (of the absurd) near you, the Rocket's red glare and the Bonds "face the media/face the music" fiascoes--the same tired band of media vigilantes who want to drag these guys through the streets of the village electronically--as Italy did to Mussolini--to be figuratively pilloried, spat upon and kicked. They turn loose an angry lych mob to extract its pound of flesh.
That's bad enough and getting more and more tiresome each time it occurs. One of the more absurd things we get from these news cycle events is the comments of "The Grumpy Old Men of Baseball".
Whether it's Goose Gossage or Ferguson Jenkins (embarrasing) hard-line comments or the newest thoughts from Carlton Fisk and Jack Clark, along with healthy doses of WRATH, we find many of its companions in the team picture of the Seven Deadly Sins, ENVY, PRIDE, GREED AND GLUTTONY. Not so much LUST and SLOTH, and trust me I was looking for lust, just didn't find it. But folks, it dawns on me as I hear these comments, that we certainly have at minimum 4-5 of the seven deadly sins in there. That's not good. Not something you want to hang your hat on.
So maybe, for the good of the game and all, it's time to give it a rest.
For all these grumpy old men and all the Johnny-come-lately moralists with their holier than thou attitudes, my main question is this:
If you replace the word "cheaters" with the word "sinners" in any of the debate about sins against the "hallowed Hall of Fame" or "sanctified records", then who in your mind is worthy enough to gain entry?
Answer: Only one, And to my knowledge He never played in The Game. And as I understand it, His take on this might be something along the lines of,
"All of us have become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment" - Isaiah 64:6
"for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" - Romans 3:23
Maybe guys like McGwire should have been more in tune to what "the Man Upstairs" expected and not simply taken advantage of the "gift of hitting" that he was given. And perhaps some of the baseball moralists should be getting their morality and Truth from something other than the back of a bubble gum card.
In the future the narrative may be changed to include some real truths, not what we perceive as truth. The maybe we can make some progress. I kind of doubt we will, there is too much money, power and glory to be had in the making and breaking of false idols.
Perhaps I'll change my mind when I see the fans and current players (like Holliday and Pujols) join the vigilante crowd. The Cardinals owners are still supporting McGwire or he wouldn't be on staff. That's telling.
But by and large, the fans continue to give McGwire an ovation. That's telling. They know and accept that he has done wrong, they are just forgiving. That is where the dichotomy exists between fans and the media on this issue. Fans also seem to understand that we can't have a culture where "it's OK if my guy is doing it, but woe to guys on the other team".
That's not right and it is part of the reason we are where we are in the first place. "The Cone of Silence" and all. Yes, I invoked the "Cone of Silence". It didn't work in the "Get Smart" episodes and it hasn't worked too well in this fiasco.
This is at the heart of how baseball got so far off the tracks. This Cone of Silence. I just think the media should step up and accept some blame as well. They took to the road of denial even as late as to protect "the product" from contamination by Jose Canseco when his first book was published.
My synopsis of the failing of the media can best be summed up by the mournful wailing of Bruce Springsteen at the end of his epic song "Jungleland" when he sings:
Outside the streets on fire in a real death waltz
Between what's flesh and what's fantasy
And the poets down here don't write nothing at all,
They just stand back and let it all be
WOW!!! A "Get Smart" and a Springsteen reference in one post. Now that's AWESOME.
----- TIME NOW FOR A CONVERSATION WITH CARLTON FISK (AND THE SLAV aka CS)
CARLTON FISK INTERVIEW WITH THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE'S Fred Mitchell with my comments (CS) added.
"I didn't just find this out, I worked hard in the gym to look like I did and feel like I felt. (Catching) took a toll on me, too. A lot of people knew. Nobody wanted to really address the issue.
"But when you have some of these obscene numbers being put up by people who shouldn't even be there. … I mean, you know what's going on. … The people it should have been most obvious to are the people who covered it up by not addressing it."
CS - That is so right!!, Here we agree. Too many, who stood idly by and could have done something early, but didn't. They didn't because they were ALL profiteering as a result of it. To leave this out of the equation and scapegoat others is a bit repugnant. And now the silent majority are struggling with their own feeling of GUILT. "Why didn't I come forward?" GREED would be my guess. GLUTTONY perhaps. Times were good, everyone was getting fat and happy. Don't worry Carlton, you're absolved. What's that quote about 'all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to remain silent'. We saw similar feelings of guilt rise in Germany after the Holocaust.
The jails are filled with guys who acquiesced, remained silent, profited from or were complicit in crimes that were committed and did little or nothing to stop them when they could have. They call them accomplices.
"You don't blame people for not ratting them out; you blame the people who abused the pharmaceutical world," Fisk said. "It's not like you are taking a couple of aspirin and you don't know what's going on. (Non-prescription steroid use has been) a federal offense for a long time, regardless of whether baseball was recognizing it and putting rules into place. The people who did it … they were breaking the law to start with. It doesn't have to be a baseball law. They knew what they were doing and the reason they were doing it. Now they are sorry because they are getting called out."
CS - So exonerate your own and other players "complicity by silence" by using the pejorative term "ratting them out" instead of "doing the right thing". All the while you ALL were cashing the checks. Exonerate MLB for "doing nothing" instead of "doing the right thing" ALL the while they were giddy that the turnstiles were humming and the cash registers were ringing. GREAT!!!
That probably will not play well in Peoria. Or with anyone having an IQ above room temperature.
"(McGwire) says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does. It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better," said Fisk, who starred for the Red Sox and White Sox.
CS - Jury is still out on this one in the scientific community. Bigger, stronger, faster does not always equate to better in baseball. If it were that easy, guys would have been in the weight room a lot sooner, with or without PED's. And they would still be there today.
We only see the guys who PED's allegedly helped. The tip of the iceberg. There is not much attention paid to those who tried PED's and and failed miserably. I don't know why I just thought of seeing Lenny Dykstra in the 1986 World Series on ESPN Classic last night, but I just did. Was his career aided or set back? Hard to say because you cannot prove (or disprove) the counter-factual. Everyone is relying on their gut instincts in this regard, which implies a high level of emotion thrown into the mix, which is gasoline on the fire of reasoned thinking.
"Some of these numbers that are out there are really warped. Should they be considered? You saw how McGwire was viewed in the Hall of Fame voting. If you take the length of time that (steroid abusers) use that stuff and subtract 15 or 20 home runs a year for those guys, where are their numbers then?"
CS - This is what it is really all about for these guys, glorify me but nobody else. What these guys have done does not diminish what happened in the past, if anything it enhances it. Again, most fans with IQ's above room temperature can consider all the facts and all the numbers and make their conclusions accordingly. Let it go, dude. The numbers are not the be all and end all to the discussions. Probably never have been or Phil Rizzuto would not be in the Hall of Fame.
"That's a crock," Fisk said. "There's a reason they call it performance-enhancing drugs. That's what it does — performance enhancement. You can be good, but it's going to make you better. You can be average, but it is going to make you good. If you are below average, it is going to make you average. Some guys who went that route got their five-year, $35 million contracts and now are off into the sunset somewhere. Because once they can't use (steroids) anymore, they can't play anymore.
"And steroids, during that time, probably did as much to escalate players' salaries as did free agency, as did arbitration, and all of that stuff. It did more than just put home runs up on the board or money in the guys' pocket."
CS - A rising tide lifts all boats, my man. Which means you benefited as well. If average salaries went up, and they clearly did, and you were a players during that period, which you were, then you benefited as well. You and your ilk had your chance to come clean and nip this thing in the bud as well and you did not. I do not have to think long and hard to come up with a reason for the collective silence. The checks cleared, right?
Be the first one to suggest that players give back a portion of their salaries that were paid to them and that owners give back some of the profits to be paid into a fund to reimburse fans who purchased tickets during the era. That would be an interesting meeting to attend. Trying to figure out the respective payouts. As a fan, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a refund.
"Try having your knees operated on and catching for 30 years," Fisk said. "Do you think you feel good when you go out there? (McGwire) had to stand around and play first base. So excuuuuuse me.
CS - Come on, give me a bucket, Carlton
"The reason he (Clemens) got let go from the Red Sox was because he was starting to break down," Fisk said. "His last couple of years in Boston just weren't very productive, a la 'The Rocket.' Then all of a sudden he goes to Toronto and he wants to show somebody something. Then he gets two consecutive Cy Young Awards (in '97 and '98). Come on, give me a bucket.
"It's obvious to players. You notice that stuff. You know how hard it is to play the game. You know how hard it is to be productive at any age, but especially at an older age. You see guys who are as productive later on as they were early (in their careers). It offends guys that stayed clean. But (the abusers) set their great, great, great grandchildren up for the rest of their lives.
CS - If it was so obvious to players at that time, and you were so aggrieved by the OBVIOUS behavior, then you should have been more confrontational at the time. Speak to your union rep if you didn't want to confront guys individually.
Given how you confronted Deion Sanders in the batters box one time about his "behavior"--I believe he was drawing a $ sign in the box or some other such nonsense that went against the unwritten baseball "code"--one would think that you would be bold enough to be confrontational about this issue of such greater importance.
No shit about Clemens, Sherlock. I was down with that when all the clown-asses were holding up Bonds as the only criminal in baseball. You can look that one up, as Casey Stengel would say. It's about time everyone took the blinders off.
Don't worry, we know ex-Red Sox players were all clean. The Mitchell Report told us so.
"Guys are bigger, guys are stronger, granted. Strength and conditioning and all of the knowledge that goes into being a bigger, better and stronger athlete is at everybody's disposal right now. Guys are bigger and stronger. Better? I don't know about that. But there is more stuff available to guys today.
CS- "Better? I don't know about that?" Do I detect a bit of envy/jealousy in your voice Carlton? Better is clearly in the eye of the beholder and it seems as if the fans voted with their dollars and their fannies and said "Yes, better". Baseball was catapulted to a position where it was beginning to reclaim it's rightful position from football as America's past time. And everybody was on board. EVERYBODY in that era benefited in some fashion. Users, yes. Higher numbers, higher salaries. Non-users, yes. You forget about the economic theory of a rising tide lifting all boats. EVERYBODY'S salary went up on average. The owners clearly did not discriminate between users and non-users when doling out salary. And I don't see ANYONE giving the money back. And I don't see many, if any, fans asking for their money back. Of lesser crimes have class-action lawsuits been made. Especially when fraudulent behavior is involved.
"I think back to when baseball was scuffling to recapture the passion of the American fan after the '94 season. I think baseball and everybody involved in the decision-making at every level just turned their head and said: 'This is good for baseball, look at the prosperity of the game. It's growing and growing and growing.'
"And now it's (in bad shape) because it wasn't addressed back when the rest of us knew. How did that guy (using steroids) outgrow his uniform?"
CS - You are correct sir. So we should weep for all of these Johnny-Come-Lately moralists who had the opportunity to, as you say "rat these guys out" and DID NOT? And now you are struggling with your own guilt feelings of "why didn't I stand up and say something?" and instead of owning up to why you DIDN'T stand up you guys want to lash out, scapegoat and point fingers.
Great way to move forward.
Come on, give me a bucket Carlton.
---------- A CONVERSATION WITH JACK CLARK AND ANDY VAN SLYKE (AND THE SLAV aka CS)
Jack Clark's time in the spotlight fell mostly in the years before the so-called steroids era.
That didn't stop the former Cardinals and Giants All-Star slugger from revealing an extreme distaste for players who might have availed themselves of a performance-enhancing drug during their time in the big leagues.
-----
CS - Hey Jack, loved you when you were with the Giants. Sorry you came along before salaries really exploded to the level they have today. But it seems like when you played guys from the 60's and 70' thought you guys were overpaid jackasses too.
"All those guys are cheaters -- A-Rod [Alex Rodriguez]. Fake, phony. Rafael
Palmeiro. Fake, a phony," Clark told the newspaper. "[Roger] Clemens, [Barry] Bonds. [Sammy] Sosa. Fakes. Phonies. They don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.
CS - I wonder if the people you left holding the bag when you declared bankruptcy would feel the same about you, but I digress.
"Steroid abusers and suspected users "are all lucky they didn't end up in jail. It's all comical to a certain point. It's a three-ring circus. It really is. From [commissioner] Bud Selig to Tony [La Russa] to A-Rod to Manny Ramirez to Palmeiro ... What a joke."
CS - Now, now Jack. You know that law enforcement rarely if ever falls hard on users, only dealers. Agreed on what a joke it is and how it extends to the highest levels in baseball. Still waiting for my apology from there. I won't hold my breath waiting because they must be afraid that they may have to give money back to fans due to perpetuating a fraud.
"[McGwire's] own manager never knew that [Jose] Canseco and McGwire and anybody else ever had taken steroids? Trust me, from [a former player], I have a lot of insight into who did what and when but I'm not even going to talk about it. It really doesn't matter."
CS - Now, now Jack. You know player silence (your own included) was part of the problem. Agree with you again on how it also infected managers, strength coaches, trainers, GM's and owners. All the way up the line. Seems like just like at Abu Gharib however, the folks on the lowest level of the food chain take the blame. The higher ups give speeches on the issue and make more money and power and fame, the lower level grunts go to jail.
"This thing stretches a long way back and it's really ugly and just really shocking."
CS - Somebody should have spoken up.
"These guys are playing the game for their own benefits and it's really disgusting. ... They go up there and shed a tear and they think all is forgotten. Well, it's not forgotten and it never will be."
"He should not be in baseball. He should be banned from baseball more than ever.
CS - Because we are such a forgiving country and junk, right Jack? Are you sure some of this anger doesn't revolve around the fact that McGwire is the current Cardinals hitting coach and you are the ex-. Sucks to be the ex- anything I suppose, but I know ex's aren't supposed to like current's. I just have to ask the wives. Thanks for your time, Jack.
---------
from the same espn.com story, Andy Val Slyke's comments on McGwire
"There's a lot of finger-pointing by Mark McGwire," Van Slyke continued. "He blames it on not being tested and he blames it on the era. Why would you blame baseball for taking steroids?
CS - There's also a measure of accountability, something that has been lacking from "baseball" meaning the MLB and ownership.
"That's like me saying the reason I was drunk-driving was because I knew that on this particular highway, they didn't have anything for me to blow into."
CS - Just like a ballplayer to mess up an analogy. Actually it's interesting that you bring up the DUI analogy because there are analogies to the DUI problem in this country and how it was handled and how it changed. But it doesn't fit the narrative the media wants to portray. They have , for the most part, summarily dismissed the "cultural argument" because it forces them to accept "some" accountability. They would rather accept none.
Back to the DUI analogy. At one time drinking and driving was considered somewhat socially acceptable. Like smoking at your desk at the office, that has gone the way of the dinosaur. If it were not for the persistence of vocal "outsider" group like MADD (Mothers against drunk Driving) its doubtful if those in power would have addressed the problem.
What I liken it more to is when a STOP sign is taken down at an intersection, people will unknowingly violate the law. As we see, even when there is STOP signs posted, and this is the key--LITTLE OR NO ENFORCEMENT--people will violate the law. Look at the enactment of seat-belt laws for a parallel.
Pointing to a Fay Vincent memo in 1991 that had no enforcement or penalties attached is rather meaningless, with all due respect to the former Commissioner. I'm not saying it's right. It is however, a matter of human behavior and as long as the rosters are filled by humans.....well you know where I'm going with this conclusion.
Anyway, I am happy as always to have been of service. Thanks for your time, Andy.
1. Joey Bart 6-2, 215 C Power arm and a power bat, playing a premium defensive position. Good catch and throw skills.
2. Heliot Ramos 6-2, 185 OF Potential high-ceiling player the Giants have been looking for. Great bat speed, early returns were impressive.
3. Chris Shaw 6-3. 230 1B Lefty power bat, limited defensively to 1B, Matt Adams comp?
4. Tyler Beede 6-4, 215 RHP from Vanderbilt projects as top of the rotation starter when he works out his command/control issues. When he misses, he misses by a bunch.
5. Stephen Duggar 6-1, 170 CF Another toolsy, under-achieving OF in the Gary Brown mold, hoping for better results.
6. Sandro Fabian 6-0, 180 OF Dominican signee from 2014, shows some pop in his bat. Below average arm and lack of speed should push him towards LF.
7. Aramis Garcia 6-2, 220 C from Florida INTL projects as a good bat behind the dish with enough defensive skill to play there long-term
8. Heath Quinn 6-2, 190 OF Strong hitter, makes contact with improving approach at the plate. Returns from hamate bone injury.
9. Garrett Williams 6-1, 205 LHP Former Oklahoma standout, Giants prototype, low-ceiling, high-floor prospect.
10. Shaun Anderson 6-4, 225 RHP Large frame, 3.36 K/BB rate. Can start or relieve
11. Jacob Gonzalez 6-3, 190 3B Good pedigree, impressive bat for HS prospect.
12. Seth Corry 6-2 195 LHP Highly regard HS pick. Was mentioned as possible chip in high profile trades.
13. C.J. Hinojosa 5-10, 175 SS Scrappy IF prospect in the mold of Kelby Tomlinson, just gets it done.
14. Garett Cave 6-4, 200 RHP He misses a lot of bats and at times, the plate. 13 K/9 an 5 B/9. Wild thing.
2019 MLB Draft - Top HS Draft Prospects
1. Bobby Witt, Jr. 6-1,185 SS Colleyville Heritage HS (TX) Oklahoma commit. Outstanding defensive SS who can hit. 6.4 speed in 60 yd. Touched 97 on mound. Son of former major leaguer. Five tool potential.
2. Riley Greene 6-2, 190 OF Haggerty HS (FL) Florida commit.Best HS hitting prospect. LH bat with good eye, plate discipline and developing power.
3. C.J. Abrams 6-2, 180 SS Blessed Trinity HS (GA) High-ceiling athlete. 70 speed with plus arm. Hitting needs to develop as he matures. Alabama commit.
4. Reece Hinds 6-4, 210 SS Niceville HS (FL) Power bat, committed to LSU. Plus arm, solid enough bat to move to 3B down the road. 98MPH arm.
5. Daniel Espino 6-3, 200 RHP Georgia Premier Academy (GA) LSU commit. Touches 98 on FB with wipe out SL.
2019 MLB Draft - Top College Draft Prospects
1. Adley Rutschman C Oregon State Plus defender with great arm. Excellent receiver plus a switch hitter with some pop in the bat.
2. Shea Langliers C Baylor Excelent throw and catch skills with good pop time. Quick bat, uses all fields approach with some pop.
3. Zack Thompson 6-2 LHP Kentucky Missed time with an elbow issue. FB up to 95 with plenty of secondary stuff.
4. Matt Wallner 6-5 OF Southern Miss Run producing bat plus mid to upper 90's FB closer. Power bat from the left side, athletic for size.
5. Nick Lodolo LHP TCU Tall LHP, 95MPH FB and solid breaking stuff.
