Yahya Snow's Debate Challenge on "Thighing" Happily Accepted!

Yahya Snow has repeatedly accused Sam and me of deliberately lying about Muhammad "thighing" Aisha (i.e., placing his penis between her legs and moving back and forth until he ejaculates), even though our claims come directly from Islamic scholars and Islam's most trusted sources.

However, Yahya denies that he was trying to conceal facts when he blocked Sam's link to an Islamic fatwa site proving that Yahya was wrong, and when he blocked Sam's link to our discussion of the evidence that Muhammad thighed Aisha. So he wasn't actually trying to conceal anything by concealing the evidence against him!

Yahya is now trying to save face by issuing a debate challenge:

Since Sam has been challenging Yahya to debate for a while now (Yahya deletes such challenges, but not in an effort to conceal them, mind you!), we're shocked that he has finally agreed to debate.

Apparently, Yahya would rather debate me than Sam "the Assyrian Encyclopedia" Shamoun, but we're happy to accommodate him.

So the next time we have a set of shows on ABN, you can all look forward to finally seeing Yahya's face. We'll patch him in via Skype, and we'll have a wonderful discussion of the Islamic practice of "thighing" (unless, of course, Yahya comes up with an excuse for backing out of the debate he challenged me to!).

On a related note, after Yahya debates me, perhaps he'll finally get around to accepting Anthony's debate challenge (we already know he'll never debate Sam!):

Yahya Snow Conceals Proof That Muhammad Thighed Aisha

For years, Yahya Snow has been accusing us of lying about Muhammad "thighing" Aisha (putting his penis between her legs and moving back and forth until he ejaculates). I've ignored Yahya for most of that time, because I learned long ago that he doesn't know even the basics about the Qur'an or Hadith, and that, when I quote the Qur'an or Hadith, he simply doesn't care. It's kind of pointless to argue with a Westernized Muslim who thinks he knows more about Islam than his own prophet!

Things changed recently when Yahya began attacking Sam right after Sam's mother died. This was a new low, even for Yahya (who was already a few rungs below Nadir Ahmed on the apologetics and character ladders). Yahya continued attacking Sam by claiming, once again, that we had fabricated the issue of thighing. Most of his article, as usual, consists of personal attacks (standard practice for lower level apologists, who try to demean the opposition rather than refute their arguments). But there are a few portions where he attempts to make some substantive claims:

So there you have it. The claim that Muhammad thighed Aisha is based on a fatwa quoted on a Christian website, we've been rebuked into silence on the issue (i.e., we're not simply ignoring Yahya), etc.

Once again, Yahya displays his ignorance, and it's up to Sam and me to show him his error. Sam began by posting a link to a fatwa on Islam Web:

Since Islam Web is an Islamic fatwa site run by Muslim scholars, you might expect Yahya to immediately correct his error and apologize. Instead, Yahya erased Sam's comment and the link to the fatwa! Even now, Yahya's site claims that our accusation is based on a fatwa we found on a Christian site. So Yahya knows that his claim is false, but he conceals the truth by erasing the proof!

But Yahya wasn't done. After I wrote a brief summary of the evidence (taken directly from Sahih al-Bukhari) that Muhammad promoted the thighing of virgins, Sam posted a comment in the comments section of Yahya's article:

Yahya, since you've accused us of lying about Muhammad and thighing, it's only fair of you to post a link to the following article on thighing, so that your readers can examine the evidence and judge for themselves whether we are lying or not. Please include the following link in all articles and videos in which you accuse us of lying about thighing:

Muhammad and the Thighing of Aisha

Yahya had challenged us for evidence and claimed that we were lying, so it seemed fair to let his readers examine both sides of the issue. Instead, Yahya again immediately erased the comment and the link! Sam even invited Yahya to come on our show and debate the evidence, but Yahya erased that comment as well! It seems that Yahya wants to keep his readers in complete ignorance of the facts, pretending that we're running from him, while simultaneously calling us liars!

This is precisely what we've come to expect from Yahya, and it's why we never take his accusations seriously. He tries desperately to portray himself as an apologist, but when he is confronted with actual evidence and sources, his solution is to conceal the evidence and sources. He's like a spoiled child who throws a tantrum to get attention, but doesn't know what to do when he suddenly gets the attention he craves. This means, of course, that we will end up ignoring him again. But as soon as we ignore him, he will claim that we've been rebuked into silence!

I suppose we should all be thankful for Yahya. He's shown us the depths a person has to go to in order to defend Islam. Thank you, Yahya, for reminding us why we could never do what you do!

To sum up, here's a screenshot of Yahya's comments section:

Kind of reminds me of Muhammad's companion Uthman burning all Qur'an manuscripts in order to conceal the differences and pretend that there's only one Qur'an!

Muhammad and the Thighing of Aisha

There's been an interesting debate in recent years between Christian apologists and Westernized Muslim apologists over the Islamic practice of "thighing," which involves a Muslim (more specifically, Muhammad) putting his penis between the thighs of a virgin (or a woman during her monthly period) and moving back and forth until he ejaculates.

As usual, Christian apologists got this accusation from Muslim scholars, who refer to the practice in their fatwas (legal rulings by Islamic scholars). The problem is that, whenever we link to a fatwa discussing the Islamic practice of thighing, Westernized Muslims complain to the fatwa site administrators, and the administrators then remove the fatwa. Once the fatwa is removed, Westernized Muslims accuse us of inventing the issue of thighing in order to attack Muhammad!

Just so there's no denying the fact that Muslim scholars issue such rulings, here's a screenshot of a fatwa on thighing that is still available at Islam Web (though it may be taken down once this article circulates):

But this won't convince Westernized Muslim apologists, who, despite their profound ignorance of their own sources, nevertheless believe that they know more about Islam than their scholars and jurists. They will settle for nothing less than a clear Qur'an statement declaring: "Thus saith Allah on the issue of thighing . . .," and even here they would simply reinterpret the passage!

For those of us who are more balanced in our approach and less obsessed with defending Muhammad at all costs, the Muslim sources provide abundant material on the issue of thighing. In order to avoid any accusations of deception, however, I will (1) limit myself to narrations that are available online for everyone to read, and (2) proceed step by step, showing carefully how Muslim scholars arrive at their conclusions.

First, we need to keep in mind that the Muslim sources do not use the word "thighing." Instead, they refer to a practice that is usually translated into English as "fondling" or "playing." The term is used of some sort of sexual practice with virgins and with women during menses (when sex is forbidden, according to Qur'an 2:222). Here are two examples (there are plenty more):

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Number 17:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron.' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Available online here.)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Available online here.)

Notice that Muhammad found the practice of "fondling" virgins preferable to sex with adult women.

Second, Muhammad used to do something that would leave semen on his clothes. Here are two narrations (again, there are plenty more):

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 231:
Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar: I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible." (Available online here.)

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 233:
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them. (Available online here.)

What was Muhammad doing that left semen all over his clothes? Since Muhammad condemned both masturbation and coitus interruptus (removing the penis from a woman before ejaculation), this leaves Westernized Muslim apologists to argue that Muhammad's semen marks were the result of nocturnal emissions (wet dreams). But Muhammad had far, far too much sex to have nocturnal emissions.

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 1, Number 268: Narrated Qatada: Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven). (Available online here.)

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 7, Number 142: Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives. (Available online here.)

Even with so many wives, Muhammad got in trouble for having sex with his slave-girl, Mary the Copt.

So the semen on Muhammad's clothes didn't result from masturbation, coitus interruptus, or nocturnal emissions. Via the process of elimination, that leaves us with some sort of sexual practice with his wives, which didn't involve masturbation, but also didn't involve penetration. Hence, Muhammad must have been using his wives' bodies to pleasure himself. Apart from penetration, how did Muhammad use his wives' bodies to satisfy his sexual urges? Muslim scholars have a simple answer that explains all of the data: Muhammad practiced "thighing."

Moreover, since Muhammad found the practice of thighing virgins preferable to sex with grown women (as we saw in Sahih al-Bukhari), he must have had some experience with thighing virgins. Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old, but didn't consummate the marriage until she was nine years old. This three-year period between marriage and consummation must have been the time when he practiced thighing (unless our Muslim friends want to argue that he practiced thighing with a different virgin).

Of course, if Westernized Muslim apologists want to argue that Muhammad didn't practice thighing, they're free to explain the data in some other way. They merely need to tell us (a) what the practice of "fondling" involved, (b) what Muhammad was doing that left semen all over his clothes, and (c) why Muslim scholars have concluded that Muhammad practiced thighing. If they can explain these issues successfully, I suppose we'll have to drop the issue of thighing.

In the meantime, it's a bit disingenuous for Westernized Muslim apologists to accuse us of deception, when we only started drawing attention to "thighing" because Muslim scholars were talking about it. When we factor in the evidence from the Hadith, which is entirely consistent with thighing and inexplicable without it, we can only conclude that Muslim scholars who describe this early Islamic practice are absolutely correct.

Alternatively, Westernized Muslim apologists might want to take an indirect approach, by arguing that Muhammad couldn't have practiced thighing, since Muhammad is the pattern of conduct for all men (Qur'an 33:21), and "thighing" a little girl obviously isn't something that Islam's highest pattern of conduct would do. But let's face it. Muhammad (1) had sex with a prepubescent girl, (2) had sex with nearly a dozen women in one day, (3) had sex with his slave-girl in his wife's bed, (4) married the divorced wife of his own adopted son, (5) married a woman after having her husband tortured and killed, (6) allowed his followers to rape their female captives, (7) allowed his followers to hire prostitutes, and (8) promised his followers a paradise of eternal erections, which they will use to endlessly deflower their virgins. If Muslims want to argue that a man who did and taught all of this simply couldn't put his penis between his child-bride's legs, we'll have to wait patiently for their proof.